BeerBorg

I posted before that I'm going to be brewing up a special beer for my future son-in-law to give as a gift to his groomsmen. After talking it over with him, we decided on a black IPA, so I'm going to do a 2.5 gallon initial run this weekend. I don't even have an actual recipe, but here are some of the things I'm kicking around in my head.

1 - I think I'd prefer a sweeter malt backbone, as opposed to the sometimes bitter bite you can get with dark specialty malts. So I was thinking, for color, that chocolate and a very dark crystal, like 150L, would help with that. And I thought using some Munich in with the 2-row would add some sweetness and body to the base malt profile - say one part Munich to two parts 2-row. A touch of honey malt, some rye malt, and Biscuit will round it out. That's a complicated and aggressive grain bill, and I have no idea of the ratios just yet, but each of those malts brings its own unique contribution, and if done properly, will blend well.

2 - I'm thinking the hops should be predominately "C" hops, and I'm leaning toward Centennial/Cascade for bittering and aroma. I'd like a little more intrigue, though, and was wondering if a combination of Citra and Hallertau would work together in the flavor boil. I'd like the aroma and bitterness to predominate and have that earthy/piney aspect, but I kind of like the idea of a citrus/floral flavor lurking among the sweet/roasty malt flavors in the middle of the taste experience. I would continuously hop every five minutes from 60 to 30, to build a complex bitterness, then a 20 minute flavor boil followed by a 7 minute aroma boil. Dry hopping is also definitely in the plans.

What I want to get out of this is a mixture of sweetness and bitterness that complement each other, rather than fight for dominance. You'll know you're drinking a hop-heavy beer as you bring the glass to your face, but it'll be smooth and not a jolt to the taste buds.

Feedback?

I use Cascade, Centennial and Williamette in my Men In Black IPA and I think it works well with the dark and bitter grains but I've tasted many a black with Amarillo and really enjoyed it.
Be careful with the Honey Malt. A little goes a long way and even 8 oz can make a big difference in 5 gallons so if you're doing 2.5, definitely keep it under 4 oz.

I've only had 1 black with rye in it and while it was good, for me and my taste, it wasn't what I liked. I've thought about adding some in a future black but wasn't sure how much so I can't help you with that part of it. I have used 120 and 150 in some non black IPA's and enjoyed what they've brought to the taste and color.

I've kept a recipe I found online more than a year ago and have thoughts on this for the future but it's a different direction than what you have but I put it up so you can see what others have done with rye. And, I think I'd use more Midnight wheat or add some carafa III (some add a tiny bit of roasted barley instead)

76% Pale 2 Row
10.7% Rye Malt
5.9% C-40
5% Midnight Wheat
2.5% Chocolate Malt


1.060 OG, 1.010 FG
Mashed at 149* for 75 minutes.

79 IBU's


2 oz Chinook @ 20
2oz Cascade @ 15
1.25oz Simcoe @ 5
1oz Chinook @ Flame Out, while hot/boiling
1oz Simcoe @ Flame Out, while hot/boiling
1oz Simcoe @ 160* hopstand for 25 min
1oz Cascade @ 160* hopstand for 25 min

I think this sounds pretty good, although I would recommend using cold steeped Carafa III or Debittered Black Malt for coloring, and leave dark crystal out. Dark crystal will bring raisin/dark fruit flavor that may not go well with all the late hops... The grain bill I use with all my IPA is:
12# of 2-row
1# of Caramel 15L (or another light crystal)
0.25# of Biscuit Malt
0.25# of Honey Malt

I find that this leaves a very nice malt backbone to balance the hops very well. I also like using S-04 for my IPA to leave even more of the maltiness in.

But since you've got a while to perfect a recipe, by all means, experiment!

I agree with russki that roasted malt bitterness may not be the way to go to achieve your goal.

And the dark crystal will add raison and stone fruit notes... Lighter crystal instead maybe... 15-40L?

I have had good success with Midnight Wheat for 'blackening' a brew, and I do like a bit of British Chocolate or British Pale Chocolate to add some depth of malt flavor without adding too much roastiness...

In any case, love the hop choices... Your beer so...

Carry on!

I'll third the use of Midnight Wheat to darken it!!

Let me just explain what I like to use the Munich or Honey malt for when it comes to IPAs.

I use it to brew a more aggressively hopped IPA then I normally would when compared to the actual OG. IE to be able to brew a "Session IPA" at APA strength. Or to brew something closer to a DIPA but at IPA strength. The extra maltyness and touch of sweetness allows this "over hopping" at the lower OG and still get a "balanced" beer as such. If that's what your trying to accomplish, then it works for me.

If using Munich and other crystal malt I'd be very sparing with the honey malt. It would treat it like melanoiden / brumalt when used in a grain bill like that. As in just a little bit (a few oz) to enhance the underlying maltyness of the beer. But too much could be cloying / distracting.

I agree that the 150L is going to bring you some dark fruit/raisin types of flavors, which could be good with some hops and not so good or distracting at least with others. I think it would be really good with something like Mosiac for example which has all sorts of berry/fruit flavors on top of the piney base. I can see Hallertau tasting nice with it, it tastes nice with it in Belgian types of beers. I like it with Simcoe too. So floral/piney/earthy yes. I'm not sure about more citrusy hops, but I've honestly not tried it.

Good explanation on why your choosing the Munich or Honey. And I would agree that it adds the touch of maltyness and sweetness that really helps to balance the entire recipe out. I have used Vienna malt a number of times to do just this in both APA's and IPA's. And it works great.

I'll look into the Midnight Wheat. I ran some numbers through QBrew, and the color is still a little light for a black IPA, so that may help a lot.

I know honey malt needs to be used very sparingly, as it can become cloying otherwise. I used it in my Amber's Amber Lager, and I think it really brought a lot to the dance, so I think it could benefit this beer, too. I'll use the lighter Crystal and try cold steeping Carafa III, as well. I want to keep the chocolate, as I think it would bring a nice flavor to it.

I hadn't thought to use Simcoe at all, but I may ditch the Citra and use a combination of Simcoe and Hallertau for the flavor boil. Simcoe is the signature hops in FD's American Ale, and I can see it working well with the Hallertau, and both of them working well with Centennial/Cascade.

I was going to use WLP001 for the yeast, but I'll try it with the S-04.

I'll have to sit down on Saturday before going to the LHBS and get all this down.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

For the small batch your doing, you won't need a lot of the midnight wheat...maybe only an ounce or two.

This might be a good time to try that cold steeping trick. All of the color none of the bitterness.

If you need a small batch tester, Im your man.. ....

Okay, as best as I can figure (my version of QBrew doesn't have all of these options, so I'm sort of flying by the seat of my pants, but that's sorta my style), here's what I've got:

2-row - 4 pounds
Munich - 1.5 pounds
Rye malt - 0.25 pounds
Biscuit - 0.25 pounds
Gambrinus honey - 0.125 pounds
Carafa III - 0.25 pounds
Chocolate - 0.25 pounds
Midnight wheat - 0.25 pounds

Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 60 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 50 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 40 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 30 minutes
Hallertau - 0.25 oz - 20 minutes
Simcoe - 0.25 oz - 20 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.25 oz each - 7 minutes

I'd be cold-steeping the Midnight Wheat. I assume the water/grain ratio and the time are the same? Any other grains recommended for cold-steeping?

This puts me at an OG of 1.075, high end for an American IPA (there's no template for a Black IPA), with an IBU of 53, which is high-mid range for style.

I'll be going out Saturday afternoon to pick up the ingredients for this test batch, and I'll be checking in before I do. Thanks again!

BlackDuck wrote:For the small batch your doing, you won't need a lot of the midnight wheat...maybe only an ounce or two.

Hmm...now I see this. I've put the midnight wheat in as 4 ounces. Too much? Scale it back to 2 ounces maybe?

FedoraDave wrote:

BlackDuck wrote:For the small batch your doing, you won't need a lot of the midnight wheat...maybe only an ounce or two.

Hmm...now I see this. I've put the midnight wheat in as 4 ounces. Too much? Scale it back to 2 ounces maybe?

In my Black IPA, I used 8 ounces in a 5 gallon batch along with some crystal 80 and 120 and thought that it may have been a little too much as I was getting more roasty character than I wanted. The next time I make it, I will drop it down to 4 ounces.

FedoraDave wrote:Okay, as best as I can figure (my version of QBrew doesn't have all of these options, so I'm sort of flying by the seat of my pants, but that's sorta my style), here's what I've got:

2-row - 4 pounds
Munich - 1.5 pounds
Rye malt - 0.25 pounds
Biscuit - 0.25 pounds
Gambrinus honey - 0.125 pounds
Carafa III - 0.25 pounds
Chocolate - 0.25 pounds
Midnight wheat - 0.25 pounds

Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 60 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 50 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 40 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.1 oz each - 30 minutes
Hallertau - 0.25 oz - 20 minutes
Simcoe - 0.25 oz - 20 minutes
Centennial/Cascade - 0.25 oz each - 7 minutes

I'd be cold-steeping the Midnight Wheat. I assume the water/grain ratio and the time are the same? Any other grains recommended for cold-steeping?

This puts me at an OG of 1.075, high end for an American IPA (there's no template for a Black IPA), with an IBU of 53, which is high-mid range for style.

I'll be going out Saturday afternoon to pick up the ingredients for this test batch, and I'll be checking in before I do. Thanks again!

Dave - a few comments:

- You are using 3/4# of roasted malts; that's stout territory for a 2.5 gal batch. I would scale them down to 1-2 oz each, as you do not want the roast to overpower everything. I would also cold steep all of them together.

- You have no crystal malt in your recipe, and while Munich and Honey Malt will give you some "maltiness", they won't add any sweetness. I would add (or sub some of the 2-row) 0.25-0.5# of light crystal just to get some residual sweetness into this.

- The recipe needs more late hops - I would recommend several 0.75-1 oz additions late in the boil (20 min and up). They will contribute very little bittering regardless of what calculators are telling you. I normally do 1.5-2 oz of hops at 20, 15, 10, and 5 min for my IPAs, plus 2-3 oz dry hopped.

Keep us posted!