any cider makers out there

[Caretaker]

So as I am working my way back into beer and cider making after a 15 year hiatus I have been downloading as much information as I can find. Seeing some videos on YouTube of homebrewers using local raw ingredients for creating their ciders (i.e. making their own apple mash). Currently, using Brewer's Best and Brew Demon kits which are great and easy to use but since I am now in Belize the cost of the kits, shipping, import duties, along with about a month lead time to get here make for a lengthy process. Is anyone out there cooking must with a basic apple concentrate, fruit puree and sugar mix? If so, how have they worked? Any learnings you wish to share would be greatly appreciated.

Have a great day and CHEERS!
Dean in Belize
deaninbelize@gmail.com

[John Sand]

I haven't made any cider. Well, when we were kids we would just leave fresh cider in the counter and let it ferment naturally. I think any fruit juice that doesn't contain preservatives will ferment. If you produce your own juice from fruit, you'll have to pasteurize it or let it ferment with whatever wild yeast is present. Another challenge is that yeast may ferment out all of the sugars in the fruit, resulting in a very dry cider. You can adjust the sweetness several ways: adding lactose, which many yeasts will not ferment; stopping the ferment with heat or chemicals; or kill the yeast when the cider is finished and add some sugar back in. If you can get fruit juice cheap, experiments might be fun and instructive. Let us know how it works out.

[swenocha]

I do a fair bit of ciders, but I generally use juice. Mine are fairly uncomplicated... Grab the juice of my choice (as John mentioned... I look for as clean and natural of a cider/juice as I can), add selected ingredients (fruits, honey, etc.), usually some acid blend, and ferment with yeast of choice. I generally do one-gallon batches... a lot of times I'll simply start with a one-gallon glass jug (from Whole Foods for me) and use that as my fermentation vessel. Couldn't be easier...

I highly recommend Emma Christensen's cider book... I (and I think a few others) were recipe testers for this book, and she gives great information on every type and process of cider making... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N69V33G/re ... TF8&btkr=1

[Caretaker]

Thank you John and Swenocha for the information - most helpful!

John, you mention adding sugar back in do you add it when bottling or when consuming? The first batch produced was a Brew Demon blackberry. It did come across quite dry after 2 weeks of bottle conditioning so we were going to wait another week and try it again. The first 2 bottles we opened we mixed in some cranberry juice and it was decent, just not what I expected...although we had a real hard time controlling the temp on that first batch here in the tropics. Since then I've added ice packs around the fermenting chamber and the second Brew Demon batch tasted pretty nice straight out of the fermenter so after 2-4 weeks of bottle conditioning I believe will make this a nice cider to drink. I have just cooked up a mango cider using local concentrates here that I am hopeful will be tasty. I will surely keep you posted on the outcome.

Swenocha, I will check out the link you've attached on Ms. Emma's book. Thanks my friend.

Have a wonderful weekend!
Dean

[FrozenInTime]

How big a batch are you planning? Do you like it still or bubbly? Are you going to keg or bottle? Sweet or dry? I do this one alot with some variation every time. I like a sweet, still cider.

3 gallon pasteurized cider (I get mine from apples on our trees but frozen concentrate works good too.)
2.5 tsp Apple Pie Spice
3lb table sugar
1 lb lactose
yeast: WLP775 but any cider yeast works. For the bubbly cider, use champagne yeast.

I usually keg 2.5 gallons but the sugar kicks the abv pretty good. You can lower the sugar and make it a session cider. Adjust the spice up or down for your taste, mine I think is about right for me.

[Caretaker]

THANKS FrozenInTime!

We are making sweet and bubbly cider (mainly) when we make cider. Unfortunately, no one here in our village sells frozen concentrate but I will look to see if it is available in one of our larger cities...they are just 2 hours away, lol, from where we live. I have a brew demon 3-gallon fermenter for our vessel and bottle.
Have a great weekend - CHEERS!

[John Sand]

I think that sweetening with fermentable sugars will only work with still (un-carbed) cider, or cider that is force carbonated in a keg. You probably can sweeten it at serving time though.
I'm sure that Swen and FIT will give you good advice based on their experience.

[FrozenInTime]

Does not matter if still or bubbly, the sugar is used to up the ABV, I like them strong. Lower the sugar for lower ABV. The yeast will eat all the sugar. Lactose is not fermentable, the yeasties will not eat it, that is where the sweetness comes from. If you can't get concentrate, just pick up 3-5 gallons of apple cider from the store. It works just as well if not better. Don't get the bottles of apple juice, I think it is the maker using concentrate. IMHO

[FrozenInTime]

Darn it.... got me to thunking... I'm low on hard cider. I need to hit the stores and get 15 gallons made up. One thing I did not mention, I let mine condition in the basement for atleast 6 months as a minimum. I personally don't think the taste starts to develop any sooner. I brew more than I drink so I can let some sit 1 or 2 years but I say atleast let it sit for 6 months, IMHO. Taste, then add a little more spice and/or lactose to get it where you like it. For that reason, I might suggest going light on the lactose when brewed, you can always add but can't remove it if it's too sweet for you.

I'm wanting to do up a honey hard cider every since I had some from Strongbow. WOW, is that stuff good! I know if you add honey to the batch, it eats up all the sugars and leaves no perceived honey flavor, and using honey to carb only gives a whiteish/tight bubble head. I wonder if I would mash up some honey malt and use that with the cider to get some honey flavor... time to experiment again... hehehehehe

[BlackDuck]

I know if you add honey to the batch, it eats up all the sugars and leaves no perceived honey flavor

What if you let it ferment out, cold crash, rack to a new carboy and then add some Potassium Sorbate to kill off the remaining yeast? At this point, you could add some of the honey to get the honey flavor without any chance of further fermentation. Just a thought.

[FrozenInTime]

I know if you add honey to the batch, it eats up all the sugars and leaves no perceived honey flavor

What if you let it ferment out, cold crash, rack to a new carboy and then add some Potassium Sorbate to kill off the remaining yeast? At this point, you could add some of the honey to get the honey flavor without any chance of further fermentation. Just a thought.

Interesting! Worth trying. It would make for a still cider, I just add C02 to purge the keg. Or someone could carb it in the keg if they wish. Will have to try, I have some on hand from my bad attempt with wine.... LOL

[mashani]

Just so you know, unfiltered raw honey can contain viable bacteria. There are more then 30 kinds of lactobacillus that actually can survive in it without exploding to bits that I am aware of from scientific studies. Some of these buggers protect against Gram + bacteria, so it's a symbiotic kind of thing, IE actually protects the bees and honey from other kinds of bacteria by effectively acting like an anti-biotic. It's at least one of the reasons why honey works well for wound treatment when other stuff does not.

Note that it won't ferment the concentrated honey and make it sour normally, but once diluted it will become opportunistic and do stuff. IE make your beer into a semi-sour. I ended up with an unintentional semi-sour when I made a braggot which was a contained a significant amount of raw honey that I didn't pasteurize well enough. It wasn't bad mind you, I actually liked the sourness in it since it wasn't highly hopped. And I'm sure it was a great probiotic. But probably not what you are looking for in this sort of thing.

So if adding honey I'd make sure it is either pre pasteurized/filtered honey, or that you do a better job at it then I did.