Thanks. That’s a great answer. I do have the latest version of BeerSmith.
I’m not sure how to enter the extra whirlpool for the 60 minute addition to account for the cool down to 185. When I check the box that you mentioned do I need to put in a new whirlpool hop addition? That doesn’t seem right because that hop would have more bitterness to give than the almost spent 60 minute bittering addition.
What I did was enter the 60 minute addition as a 70 minute addition. I read about that on an Aussie site. Doing that barely changed the overall IBUs.
By the way the beer is a 1.050 stout with just a bittering addition.
Mash and Boil for 250.00
Moderators: BlackDuck, Beer-lord, LouieMacGoo, philm00x, gwcr
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
It will be more then a 70 minute addition, the mash & boil has good insulation and will not cool down quickly. So plug in at least 30 for the whirlpool time in equipment, I would suggest even more if you put the lid on it right away, and then you can tweak it to "taste" if you keep doing this. If all your hops were T60, then this isn't gonna matter too much, a 60 vs 90 minute addition is only a few IBUs with 1oz of normal hops. Where it will matter much more is if you had T20 or T5 or T0 hops because they effectively become "way longer" and they have the goods to give up still in them.
In any case you are fine with your beer. I'm just throwing out all the rest here for anyone for future reference.
I'm putting the fermentation lid on with a #11 foam lab stopper in the hole and covering the entire lid with aluminum foil off the roll and down over the sides, so I get even more insulation, but I'd rather do that then risk my house brett finding a way to fall in.
The checkbox will affect your ENTIRE recipe, all the hop additions IBUs are increased by the adjustment set by how long the "whirlpool" time you plug in is. So the 60 minute addition is already factored in if you just check that box, as is a 45, 20, 10, 5, T0... doesn't matter. It is using slightly lower then full IBU contributions for that time, IE it is assuming you are chilling it down to between 195 and 185 or something like that, not still near boiling temps and then adding more hops to the whirlpool. But it does adjust the IBUs for previous hops added to. Because your not actively chilling, you should make sure your "whirlpool" time accounts for that extra time. And beersmith doesn't understand that your going to keep not-chilling it once it gets below 185, and below 185 and 150 your still getting some more limited utilization, but still some, and the mash & boil takes a while to get down that far. That is why I say at least 30 as the number.
IE if you edit the equipment for the recipe and check that box (if it was not) and plug 30 in as the time, and go back to the recipe, the IBUs will go up. If you go back there and uncheck it (if it was) the IBUs will go down. You will see it goes up and down about what I said in the other post based on the timing of those additions. You don't have to do anything at all to your hop timing as for as the recipe. It just factors the extra time in automagically.
When adding specific hops, there is a place where you can mark them as a "whirlpool" addition instead of #ofMinutes and have them counted just for the whirlpool part of the utilization, which it counts as a lower amount/%age of AAUs extracted in this case. But that's NOT what you want to do when you are slow-chilling, you want your T0 hops to count as full initial utilization not the lesser initial utilization of true whirlpool added hops. Only add actual "whirlpool" hops as that kind of addition.
But again BeerSmith is assuming you are putting a chiller in it, and rapidly cooling down to that 195/185 range, and then holding it there for a whirlpool. So it is underestimating slightly the utilization for any given amount of time for the hops that were in the batch. That again is why I say higher # like 30 at least for timing.
Make sense?
Ultimately you just have to tweak that 30 to be 40 or 45 or whatever # seems to be giving you beer that tastes the way you want, and it might even vary by recipe depending on hop timings (IE 30 might seem fine for a T60 only beer but then you might discover that in your IPA with an unmodified hop schedule it gives you way more bittering then estimated), so it becomes part of dialing in a recipe if you were to use this process on a regular basis by either tweaking that number, or the hop timing, or both. Pretty much both when it all comes down to it.
I've done more then 25 batches this way now, so I know what to expect, plus I had the awareness of what to expect as a general idea based on my stove top stuff. So I'm pretty ok with designing recipes around it now or modifying recipes to account for it and come out similarish.
In any case you are fine with your beer. I'm just throwing out all the rest here for anyone for future reference.
I'm putting the fermentation lid on with a #11 foam lab stopper in the hole and covering the entire lid with aluminum foil off the roll and down over the sides, so I get even more insulation, but I'd rather do that then risk my house brett finding a way to fall in.
The checkbox will affect your ENTIRE recipe, all the hop additions IBUs are increased by the adjustment set by how long the "whirlpool" time you plug in is. So the 60 minute addition is already factored in if you just check that box, as is a 45, 20, 10, 5, T0... doesn't matter. It is using slightly lower then full IBU contributions for that time, IE it is assuming you are chilling it down to between 195 and 185 or something like that, not still near boiling temps and then adding more hops to the whirlpool. But it does adjust the IBUs for previous hops added to. Because your not actively chilling, you should make sure your "whirlpool" time accounts for that extra time. And beersmith doesn't understand that your going to keep not-chilling it once it gets below 185, and below 185 and 150 your still getting some more limited utilization, but still some, and the mash & boil takes a while to get down that far. That is why I say at least 30 as the number.
IE if you edit the equipment for the recipe and check that box (if it was not) and plug 30 in as the time, and go back to the recipe, the IBUs will go up. If you go back there and uncheck it (if it was) the IBUs will go down. You will see it goes up and down about what I said in the other post based on the timing of those additions. You don't have to do anything at all to your hop timing as for as the recipe. It just factors the extra time in automagically.
When adding specific hops, there is a place where you can mark them as a "whirlpool" addition instead of #ofMinutes and have them counted just for the whirlpool part of the utilization, which it counts as a lower amount/%age of AAUs extracted in this case. But that's NOT what you want to do when you are slow-chilling, you want your T0 hops to count as full initial utilization not the lesser initial utilization of true whirlpool added hops. Only add actual "whirlpool" hops as that kind of addition.
But again BeerSmith is assuming you are putting a chiller in it, and rapidly cooling down to that 195/185 range, and then holding it there for a whirlpool. So it is underestimating slightly the utilization for any given amount of time for the hops that were in the batch. That again is why I say higher # like 30 at least for timing.
Make sense?
Ultimately you just have to tweak that 30 to be 40 or 45 or whatever # seems to be giving you beer that tastes the way you want, and it might even vary by recipe depending on hop timings (IE 30 might seem fine for a T60 only beer but then you might discover that in your IPA with an unmodified hop schedule it gives you way more bittering then estimated), so it becomes part of dialing in a recipe if you were to use this process on a regular basis by either tweaking that number, or the hop timing, or both. Pretty much both when it all comes down to it.
I've done more then 25 batches this way now, so I know what to expect, plus I had the awareness of what to expect as a general idea based on my stove top stuff. So I'm pretty ok with designing recipes around it now or modifying recipes to account for it and come out similarish.
Last edited by mashani on Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:38 am, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
BTW, it is *not* going to be cool enough to pitch in the AM 12 hours from when you turned it off. It's going to take more like 20. Plug it in and check the display temp before you go nuts and dump it into the fermenter, or be ready to chill it more in the fermenter somehow. I mean it when I say the insulation works. I have literally made many a beer in it with nothing but T0 additions and dry hops. When making something like a hoppy APA or ESB and using higher AA hops or larger amounts of lower AA hops, that is sometimes all you need if you slow chill in the thing because of how much utilization happens before it cools down. It is not hard to get ~30 or more IBUs just from T0 hops. You can make an IPA with full on bitterness easily by dumping in 4oz or so of high AA hops at T0 in the thing. Slow chill in the mash & boil pretty much requires you to re-think the recipe a bit even compared to aussies who do it, unless it's just a bittering addition only kind of recipe, then it's just a matter of using slightly less hops or not worrying about the handful of extra IBUs (ie maybe someone likes it better that way too who knows, IE people who don't like a "sweet" festbier might like it better using the full amount and getting the extra IBUs).
The good thing is with the lid on it, you don't lose the aroma and flavor, even though it's so hot that it's also extracting lots of AAUs. The volatile hop oils just condense back into the wort once it cools down. You get more aroma then a "normal" whirlpool as long as you put the lid on right away. I was used to this because of my all late hopped lid on hop stand stove top batches, so it was easy for me to adjust. What I had to tweak is AAUs, as in I get much more then I did on the stove top doing it. IE where on the stove top I might have done a T20 or T15 and a T0, I might just do a T5 and/or T0 now.
And the other good thing is you can actually use less hops and get similar effect. Because you don't need that traditional 1oz @60 that gives you just bitter anymore. You don't need anything @60 or even @30 for a hoppy beer. Just @15 or <.
The good thing is with the lid on it, you don't lose the aroma and flavor, even though it's so hot that it's also extracting lots of AAUs. The volatile hop oils just condense back into the wort once it cools down. You get more aroma then a "normal" whirlpool as long as you put the lid on right away. I was used to this because of my all late hopped lid on hop stand stove top batches, so it was easy for me to adjust. What I had to tweak is AAUs, as in I get much more then I did on the stove top doing it. IE where on the stove top I might have done a T20 or T15 and a T0, I might just do a T5 and/or T0 now.
And the other good thing is you can actually use less hops and get similar effect. Because you don't need that traditional 1oz @60 that gives you just bitter anymore. You don't need anything @60 or even @30 for a hoppy beer. Just @15 or <.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
Thanks Mashani! You are the go to brewer for advice on the Mash and Boil.
I get it now. The check box “ Estimate Boil Hop Util In Whirlpool - Recommended in steeping/ whirlpoooling” in the equipment profile adjusts all of the hop additions used by the time entered under
“ Total Whirlpool Time.”
Wow, you are dead on about the long cool down time. I’m at 15 hours of cool down in a 65 degree room and the temperature is reading 89 degrees. I covered the lid with foil that draped over the lid. I also plugged the little hole with a “ flower shaped “ piece of aluminum foil.
It makes me nervous waiting so many hours to pitch the yeast. I’ve been using the Zymatic overnight chill method where 12 hours usually brings the wort to pitching temperatures. The Zymatic brews in a single walled corny keg whereas the MB is double wall insulated.
I was considering fermenting right in the MB on top of all the trub and hops debris. This method works in the Zymatic keg without any issues. I’m not going to do it because temperature control for fermentation in the MB looks like it will be harder to accomplish than in a bucket or Spiedel. I also use a Tilt hydrometer to track gravity while fermenting and it won’t connect to bluetooth through the MB’s aluminum walls.
I get it now. The check box “ Estimate Boil Hop Util In Whirlpool - Recommended in steeping/ whirlpoooling” in the equipment profile adjusts all of the hop additions used by the time entered under
“ Total Whirlpool Time.”
Wow, you are dead on about the long cool down time. I’m at 15 hours of cool down in a 65 degree room and the temperature is reading 89 degrees. I covered the lid with foil that draped over the lid. I also plugged the little hole with a “ flower shaped “ piece of aluminum foil.
It makes me nervous waiting so many hours to pitch the yeast. I’ve been using the Zymatic overnight chill method where 12 hours usually brings the wort to pitching temperatures. The Zymatic brews in a single walled corny keg whereas the MB is double wall insulated.
I was considering fermenting right in the MB on top of all the trub and hops debris. This method works in the Zymatic keg without any issues. I’m not going to do it because temperature control for fermentation in the MB looks like it will be harder to accomplish than in a bucket or Spiedel. I also use a Tilt hydrometer to track gravity while fermenting and it won’t connect to bluetooth through the MB’s aluminum walls.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
I have not fermented in mine yet, but I would expect fermentation temps to more easily ramp up and less easily cool down, so pitching and ambient temps are going to be very important in what you are making.
The long cool down has not been a problem at all for me as far as pitching the yeast that long after, I can trace exactly 0 issues to it in my final beer. The long time before it drops below 150 just pasteurizes the crap out of whatever is in there, I think you could leave it in there for days and nothing would start to eat it as long as you kept the lid covered with foil like that, at least in my case using the fermentation lid with the lab stopper. The foam stopper I use is meant to keep lab cultures pure on a stir plate, and the fermentation lid is gasketed around the edges.
Those last degrees from say 90 to pitching take a long time... it is faster to rack it at that point to your fermenter and then chill it in the fermenter the rest of the way in an ice bath or whatever, but I think you are actually risking infection more by doing that then just waiting it out.
The long cool down has not been a problem at all for me as far as pitching the yeast that long after, I can trace exactly 0 issues to it in my final beer. The long time before it drops below 150 just pasteurizes the crap out of whatever is in there, I think you could leave it in there for days and nothing would start to eat it as long as you kept the lid covered with foil like that, at least in my case using the fermentation lid with the lab stopper. The foam stopper I use is meant to keep lab cultures pure on a stir plate, and the fermentation lid is gasketed around the edges.
Those last degrees from say 90 to pitching take a long time... it is faster to rack it at that point to your fermenter and then chill it in the fermenter the rest of the way in an ice bath or whatever, but I think you are actually risking infection more by doing that then just waiting it out.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
I got the Damn ER4 today, first time in a long time with 17 mins left in the boil. This is with 5 lbs 2 row, 5 lbs white wheat and 1 lb flaked oats. Otherwise I got some good numbers.
Happy Hound Brewery
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
Wheat + Oats = fun.
Did you see the post on Facebook about how to rewire it to disable this sensor if you want to?
Not sure if I want to do it or not, but if it became annoying as hell then maybe.
Did you see the post on Facebook about how to rewire it to disable this sensor if you want to?
Not sure if I want to do it or not, but if it became annoying as hell then maybe.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
Very seldom it bothers, I think a lot of wheat flour passed though and coated the bottom on this. I don't stir on the boil but as someone told me if I was to scape the bottom once and a while it might not of happened. Wasn't a big problem and only down for a few mins. Got decent numbers on this and no problem with sparge and was wondering how that might work before I started this.mashani wrote:Wheat + Oats = fun.
Did you see the post on Facebook about how to rewire it to disable this sensor if you want to?
Not sure if I want to do it or not, but if it became annoying as hell then maybe.
Happy Hound Brewery
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
I've only had it happen twice in 30ish batches now.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
I think I'm going to do a no-boil batch this weekend. I should have had more time since it was a 4 day weekend, but somehow, Thursday and Friday just kind of disappeared. I'll spend Saturday with my daughter, so brew day will be Sunday (and I have a lot of other things to do).
So I'm going to brew a "lagale" (my term for a lager-ish beer brewed with a clean fermenting ale yeast close to its low fermentation temperature with a lager type malt/hop profile).
I'm going to use home grown hallertauer hops. They're a couple of years old, but they've been in vacuum sealed bags in the freezer the whole time. I know I should use some sort of calculation to figure out how many to use, but I'm just going to wing it and use a bunch that I have in my freezer. There's no way of knowing the AA% of these, anyway (actually, there is a way, but it costs money, and I'd rather just guess).
So I'm going to brew a "lagale" (my term for a lager-ish beer brewed with a clean fermenting ale yeast close to its low fermentation temperature with a lager type malt/hop profile).
I'm going to use home grown hallertauer hops. They're a couple of years old, but they've been in vacuum sealed bags in the freezer the whole time. I know I should use some sort of calculation to figure out how many to use, but I'm just going to wing it and use a bunch that I have in my freezer. There's no way of knowing the AA% of these, anyway (actually, there is a way, but it costs money, and I'd rather just guess).
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
You would probably need to use a hella lot of hallertauer and/or let it just sit for a very long time at 150 to get significant bitterness doing the no-boil way that I did.
Figure something like ~5% of the AAU utilization you would get at boiling for 20-30 minutes for every 20-30 minutes it sits at 150.
The hops I used in both my batches were 12%+ AAU hops and sat for 2-3 hours @150 plus an extra half hour once I pulled the basket to make sure it was well pasteurized. I did get plenty of bitterness in both batches, but your hops are probably 1/4 of the AAUs of the ones I used or something like that.
And remember you are going to get flavor/aroma out of whatever you use in good quantity. So you are not going to make something like a "normal" lager, it will probably be more like an IPL made with German hops (at least from a flavor/aroma perspective) if you use a lot of hops to get balancing bittering done in a few hours. At least unless your hops lost much of their flavor/aroma since they are 2 years old.
The 1oz of hallertauer blanc I used in the first beer was enough for the 3 gallon batch of the Gratzer without adding excessive flavor/aroma, but it sat for 3.5 hours at 150 to get IBUs in the 20ish range, and they are way more potent then your hops and they are very mellow hops from the flavor/aroma perspective.
Figure something like ~5% of the AAU utilization you would get at boiling for 20-30 minutes for every 20-30 minutes it sits at 150.
The hops I used in both my batches were 12%+ AAU hops and sat for 2-3 hours @150 plus an extra half hour once I pulled the basket to make sure it was well pasteurized. I did get plenty of bitterness in both batches, but your hops are probably 1/4 of the AAUs of the ones I used or something like that.
And remember you are going to get flavor/aroma out of whatever you use in good quantity. So you are not going to make something like a "normal" lager, it will probably be more like an IPL made with German hops (at least from a flavor/aroma perspective) if you use a lot of hops to get balancing bittering done in a few hours. At least unless your hops lost much of their flavor/aroma since they are 2 years old.
The 1oz of hallertauer blanc I used in the first beer was enough for the 3 gallon batch of the Gratzer without adding excessive flavor/aroma, but it sat for 3.5 hours at 150 to get IBUs in the 20ish range, and they are way more potent then your hops and they are very mellow hops from the flavor/aroma perspective.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
I'm glad I checked here before starting my brew.
I'm doing an overnight mash, so I thought I'd get a lot of extraction over the 12 hours or so.
I have about 4.5 oz of hallertauer hops. I just changed my recipe to put them all as whirlpool hops for 12 hours and got 5 IBUs. I like to do an occasional brew with all homegrown hops, but 5 IBUs is pretty low. I think I'll add a bunch of Saaz hops (in keeping with the idea of making a lager like beer) to get to something more reasonable.
Getting something like an IPL isn't really a bad thing in my eyes, so I'm ok with that.
The grain and hops are in the M&B now. I had to add some additional water due to the hops.
Since I've bought a lot of hops in bulk, and I grow my own, If this works out well, I think I'll do more no-boil batches for a quick brew day.
As an aside, I got my first ER4 today. I got a little worried when I pressed the reset switch (fortunately, my M&B stand gives me easy access to the bottom of the M&B) and it didn't clear. I tried it several times with the same result.
Then I had that face-palm moment when I realized that I turned it on before putting in any water.
I'm doing an overnight mash, so I thought I'd get a lot of extraction over the 12 hours or so.
I have about 4.5 oz of hallertauer hops. I just changed my recipe to put them all as whirlpool hops for 12 hours and got 5 IBUs. I like to do an occasional brew with all homegrown hops, but 5 IBUs is pretty low. I think I'll add a bunch of Saaz hops (in keeping with the idea of making a lager like beer) to get to something more reasonable.
Getting something like an IPL isn't really a bad thing in my eyes, so I'm ok with that.
The grain and hops are in the M&B now. I had to add some additional water due to the hops.
Since I've bought a lot of hops in bulk, and I grow my own, If this works out well, I think I'll do more no-boil batches for a quick brew day.
As an aside, I got my first ER4 today. I got a little worried when I pressed the reset switch (fortunately, my M&B stand gives me easy access to the bottom of the M&B) and it didn't clear. I tried it several times with the same result.
Then I had that face-palm moment when I realized that I turned it on before putting in any water.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
If you were using BeerSmith to figure that by changing the hops to whirlpool, you should know that it is dumb and its formula does not comprehend whirlpools longer then 120 minutes. Probably because nobody in their right mind would do that LOL.
But if you play with it you will see after 120 minutes it thinks nothing happens. This would not really be the case IMHO, as long as there are non-isomerized AAs, they will still (slowly) keep doing it. At least I think so.
That's why I specifically said use a number like 5% of what the boil would be for 20-30 minutes per 20-30 minutes, I think it will get you in the right ballpark. It seemed to work out like that for me at 3.5 hours but who knows for 12... whatever it is, it will top out at some point, IE whatever a 90 minute boil would be, you probably can't get more then that no matter how long it sits at the lower temp. Maybe you can't get that high.
But I do think you might actually end up with more bitterness then Beersmith told you. You might have really actually made a German IPL who knows.
We are messing around in really weird territory here, so this is all just a bunch of experimenting and taste perception at this point, without a lab I can't actually measure the IBUs, I can only guess based on perception and experience.
But if you play with it you will see after 120 minutes it thinks nothing happens. This would not really be the case IMHO, as long as there are non-isomerized AAs, they will still (slowly) keep doing it. At least I think so.
That's why I specifically said use a number like 5% of what the boil would be for 20-30 minutes per 20-30 minutes, I think it will get you in the right ballpark. It seemed to work out like that for me at 3.5 hours but who knows for 12... whatever it is, it will top out at some point, IE whatever a 90 minute boil would be, you probably can't get more then that no matter how long it sits at the lower temp. Maybe you can't get that high.
But I do think you might actually end up with more bitterness then Beersmith told you. You might have really actually made a German IPL who knows.
We are messing around in really weird territory here, so this is all just a bunch of experimenting and taste perception at this point, without a lab I can't actually measure the IBUs, I can only guess based on perception and experience.
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
I saw your 5% estimate, but got lazy and plugged things into BS to see where it would land in the style slider. It came in about midpoint for bitterness for the American Lager style. That's not really the style I tend to drink, anymore, but I decided to try it for a change of pace.
I had my efficiency set to 60%, which is about the best I've gotten with the M&B to date (several batches have been lower). This time, I got 65%. Still not great, but an improvement. That meant that my OG was higher than predicted, as well.
So I think you're right and it's going to be a bit of a hop bomb. I'm using Nottingham, which is an ale yeast, but using it at low temperatures, where it exhibits lager-like tendencies. I guess it'll be some sort of German/American IPA/IPL hybrid.
I think the reason my efficiency went up is that in the past, I skipped the step of resetting the temperature after adding the grains, so I was mashing way high. I think the reason I didn't do any beeter is that I skipped the mashout and sparged with refrigerated water (I'm doing no-chill and wanted to speed it up).
I had my efficiency set to 60%, which is about the best I've gotten with the M&B to date (several batches have been lower). This time, I got 65%. Still not great, but an improvement. That meant that my OG was higher than predicted, as well.
So I think you're right and it's going to be a bit of a hop bomb. I'm using Nottingham, which is an ale yeast, but using it at low temperatures, where it exhibits lager-like tendencies. I guess it'll be some sort of German/American IPA/IPL hybrid.
I think the reason my efficiency went up is that in the past, I skipped the step of resetting the temperature after adding the grains, so I was mashing way high. I think the reason I didn't do any beeter is that I skipped the mashout and sparged with refrigerated water (I'm doing no-chill and wanted to speed it up).
Re: Mash and Boil for 250.00
FWIW, the few times I sparged I did it with cold water and I still got much higher MASH efficiencies then that with ultimate brewhouse falling into the 70s.
I don't think mashing too warm should be harming your efficiency unless we are talking so warm it's murdering all the enzymes. It just changes the kinds of sugars that are made. But they are still sugars, so should still register as [whatever] specific gravity. If anything mashing on the warm side should "get it done" faster and provide higher efficiency up to a point of time spent. You should just be getting beer with more body and residual maltyness, and less alcohol.
An interesting read if you like that compares efficiency with many factors.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... on_mashing
I wish I could explain the low efficiencies you seem to be getting.
BTW, FWIW, Denny says the mashout doesn't liquify the sugars and that that is a myth. But at least for me in a 60-75 minute BIAB mash, I know it does "something". What it might be doing is simply making the enzymes go nuts - they do not denature instantly, they work really hard/extra fast for a while before they denature, it's sort of like a car engine over the redline that is cranking out the horsepower until it falls apart. Best analogy I have. So they might just convert whatever bits of of lingering starch there is that it can find. If you read that braukaiser article you will see that although the way we read iodine tests says it's done in a good enough since after a 60-90 minute mash, really long mashes "do it more" still.
So with these stupidly long mashes the mashout might not do anything at all by that logic.
But I know it does something for me with a 60-75 minute mash.
I don't think mashing too warm should be harming your efficiency unless we are talking so warm it's murdering all the enzymes. It just changes the kinds of sugars that are made. But they are still sugars, so should still register as [whatever] specific gravity. If anything mashing on the warm side should "get it done" faster and provide higher efficiency up to a point of time spent. You should just be getting beer with more body and residual maltyness, and less alcohol.
An interesting read if you like that compares efficiency with many factors.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... on_mashing
I wish I could explain the low efficiencies you seem to be getting.
BTW, FWIW, Denny says the mashout doesn't liquify the sugars and that that is a myth. But at least for me in a 60-75 minute BIAB mash, I know it does "something". What it might be doing is simply making the enzymes go nuts - they do not denature instantly, they work really hard/extra fast for a while before they denature, it's sort of like a car engine over the redline that is cranking out the horsepower until it falls apart. Best analogy I have. So they might just convert whatever bits of of lingering starch there is that it can find. If you read that braukaiser article you will see that although the way we read iodine tests says it's done in a good enough since after a 60-90 minute mash, really long mashes "do it more" still.
So with these stupidly long mashes the mashout might not do anything at all by that logic.
But I know it does something for me with a 60-75 minute mash.