Concerned about my process or something else

MichaelJ · Post by **MichaelJ** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:11 am

Ok, this is going to be a little longer of a post. I have "brewed" 4 beers now. 1 has been in bottle and fridge and is tasty. 1 is on its 4th week of conditioning and is not good. 2 others are fermenting. All gravity readings done from Brew Demon tap.

Details:
One Evil Pilsner
One step sanitizer
OG: unkonwn
FG: 1.015
1 pkt Stock Brew Demon yeast (SafAle S-33 supposedly)
2 weeks in fermenter (air-lock with sanitized water) 68-70 F
Green apple flavor
Bottled anyway with 49g table sugar solution (boiled and cooled) in bottling bucket
4 weeks conditioned
Good beer, not great but good for my first time

Oktoberfest from Mr Beer
Iodophor sanitizer
OG: unknown
FG: 1.012
1 pkt Stock Mr. Beer yeast (coopers?)
I did accidentally add a little too much water in the fermenter
3 weeks in fermenter (Brew Demon vent plug) 68-70 F
Thin, a little acidic, no flavor, crystal clear
Bottled with 54g table sugar solution (boiled and cooled) in bottling bucket
3 weeks after conditioning - under carbed - no flavor - dry - something else, not sure
Another bottle to go into fridge tomorrow

Northwest Pale Ale from Mr Beer
Iodophor sanitizer
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.014
1/2 pkt US-05 re-hydrated in boiled and cooled water
10/4 - into fermenter (Brew Demon vent plug) 67-69 F
10/15 - slight hint of green green apple, very tasty, very hazy, 1.014 sg
10/20 - green apple on the nose, very tasty, much less hazy, 1.014 sg
10/24 - acidic, not very tasty anymore, 1.014 sg
10/25 - (tomorrow) Sunday fun-day, plan to bottle

Brickwarmer Holiday Red - Northernbrewing Extract kit
Iodophor sanitizer
OG: 1.057
FG: unknown
1/2 batch - 2.5 gal
1/2 pkt US-04 re-hydrated in boiled and cooled 1/2 cup water with 6g DME
10/18 - into fermenter (Brew Demon vent plug) 67-69 F
10/19 - blow-off tube replaced vent plug
10/21 - back to vent plug
10/22 - gloppy with yeast and bits, super tasty, smells great, 1.020 sg
10/24 - very hazy, now kinda acidic, wonderful taste gone (or hidden ?), 1.020 sg

The green apple didn't bother me because I knew what it was. Now I am getting just a straight mild acidity, at least I think it is acidity. I haven't seen any other descriptions that match really. Also why is the flavor good then a few days later the flavor is gone or hiding behind the acridness?

There are 2 major differences that I can tell. 1) the sanitizer I used and 2) the venting situation (plug vs air-lock)

As far as sanitation goes, I felt my first batch I was weak on sanitation and have put more focus on it. Thus the Iodophor and longer tool times in the sanitizer. All Brew Demon parts are sanitized separately, installed into the fermenter, then sanitizer added to fermenter. Sits in there for 10-15 minutes with vigorous shakes every few minutes.

Another difference I just thought of. Cleaning. First brew everything was cleaned with the one-step. All subsequent brews, everything was cleaned with Dr. Bronner Castile unscented soap with several rinses. Then sanitized with the Iodophor.

Any guidance on what I am seeing/tasting? Sanitation issue? Cleaning issue?

bpgreen · Post by **bpgreen** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:16 pm

Are you using a bottling wand? One tihng that comes to mind as a possibility is oxidation. You want oxygen in the wort at the start of fermentation because the yeast can use that to synthysize sterols and fatty acids during the reproductive phase. Later in the process, oxygen can cause premature staling.

That can make it taste like there's not much flavor and eventully a stale cardboard flavor. That wouldn' be likeily to be described as acidic.

Post by **BlackDuck** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:27 pm

I’m leaning toward oxidation too. As for sanitizer, I think you can scratch that off your list. I’ve used iodophor and star san with no issues.

I’m not familiar with the soap you used, but if it leaves any residue, it could effect flavor.

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mashani · Post by **mashani** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:44 pm

Oxidation will harm the flavors. Acidity maybe a lacto infection, which will show up late, but that will not trash the flavors, just make it tart (unless you are somehow a tart super taster and anything tart just wrecks your palette). But neither would be caused by your sanitizer choice or the plug vs. airlock, at least as long as your plug is actually sitting flat on top of the fermenter as it should be. If it is one, then some piece of equipment somewhere in the process isn't getting sanitized, or if you are dumping cool water into your fermenters before pouring the hot wort on top like some of the kit directions describe, maybe something is contaminating the water (IE if you put the water into anything, it should be sanitized too).

If it keeps getting MORE and MORE sour like vinegar, then maybe acetobacter infection, which could be possible if you ferment vegetables or such in your kitchen or wherever you brew and your sanitation isn't good, or it's floating in the air and you get some in while you are pulling the samples. But if it is that, this will actually affect your FG over time because it's eating the alcohol. (lactobacteria don't eat the alcohol and produce very minimal amounts, so you wouldn't notice this so much). And it will become unbearably sour, where lacto can be thought of as pleasant as long as it's not a very bitter beer (IE sour beers that are popular), even though it's obviously not what you are going for here.

One other thing - it seems that you are pulling lots of samples. How are you doing this? Are you sanitizing everything when samples are pulled? If through the spigot, are you sanitizing the spigot before, and then again after pulling, every time? Pulling the samples could lead to some of the oxidation (sucking oxygen into fermenter every time you do it) and/or infection if it is an infection. As a test, I would suggest that you brew a batch and *just totally ignore it* for 3 weeks and then bottle it. Don't pull any samples. Don't open the fermenter. Just ignore it. See if that batch is fine. If so then all the sample pulling is quite possibly the culprit.

MichaelJ · Post by **MichaelJ** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:18 pm

Sampling is about an ounce at a time since I currently use a refractometer. But, I might not have been as diligent in sanitizing the inside of the tap before and after the samples. Sigh. That is most likely the issue. I don't think I was pulling enough liquid out to pull in oxygen from the top, and there were no bubbles from the tap. My first batch I do remember being diligent with the tap sanitation. Sigh. Something so simple.

So lets assume I have oxidized both of my current batches. Should I even bother to bottle them? Is there still a chance for them?

I do use a bottling wand, but the Oktoberfest was already bad before I bottled.

Thanks all for the guidance.

mashani · Post by **mashani** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:16 am

MichaelJ wrote:Sampling is about an ounce at a time since I currently use a refractometer. But, I might not have been as diligent in sanitizing the inside of the tap before and after the samples. Sigh. That is most likely the issue. I don't think I was pulling enough liquid out to pull in oxygen from the top, and there were no bubbles from the tap. My first batch I do remember being diligent with the tap sanitation. Sigh. Something so simple.

So lets assume I have oxidized both of my current batches. Should I even bother to bottle them? Is there still a chance for them?

I do use a bottling wand, but the Oktoberfest was already bad before I bottled.

Thanks all for the guidance.

Well, the tap sanitation wouldn't cause the oxidation, only potentially the "tart" flavor you are describing if say a fruit fly or a breeze got some lacto or acetobacter or some wild acid producing yeast into your spigot to eat up the left over wort that didn't get cleaned up after pulling a sample and then your "good" wort touched that later and some of it got into the fermenter and/or your bottles. Or if somehow a fruit fly got into your fermenter (should not happen unless your lid is very loose). Or if a spigot just didn't really get cleaned well between batches and an opportunistic bug got in there.

You really should be taking your spigots off and taking them apart and cleaning them and sanitizing them between batches if you are not. A spigot that gets a bug in it will keep re-infecting future batches … forever … until it gets cleaned up. I always disassemble and clean and sanitize my spigots after every batch. If you take apart a spigot that hasn't been done like this between every batch or two you will see just how naaaaaasty they can get. There is a saying "you can't sanitize dirt", and spigots, they start to be just like that if not maintained.

Not sure where you got oxidized if that happened as well. That should only happen post fermentation if somehow you really agitated the wort. Pulling a few oz wouldn't do it on it's own, at least not to the extent that it causes as much of a problem as quickly as you are describing. But if you have to pick up and move around your fermenters and it's sloshing around every time you pull a sample, maybe then. If picking them up and you are squeezing and then releasing the sides of your fermenter and its thin walled (IE brew demon fermenter) then you are squishing CO2 out and sucking oxygen in every time you do that. I could see doing that a bunch of times causing problems. It's best to not move the thing at all until your ready to bottle if it's one of those fermenters. At the very least, only hold it by the hard plastic base to avoid any squish. (you may be doing this already, I'm just tossing it out as a possible factor). Oh and doing that would be one of the only ways a wild yeast or bacteria bug floating in your air could get sucked into your fermenter as well and cause the sour. Beer infecting bugs can't crawl up under your lid, or get through your plug or crawl under your plug, or fall through your airlock, etc. They can only do one of two things - fall in to an opening IE if the lid is off... or get sucked in due to a change in pressure. Any squeezing of the sides of a brew demon fermenter would unfortunately "do that" potentially though.

Keep or dump, that's subjective. I only dump if it's just plain bad. I don't dump if its just not what I intended as a result. Some people will dump stuff even if it's not just what they intended, especially people who only like a very specific style of beer. It's not worth drinking bad beer, and if I got a sour IPA I would likely dump that because sour + bitter = yuck, but if I got a slightly lacto sour Oktoberfest, I might just call it a sour and drink it with shots of Italian syrup.

MichaelJ · Post by **MichaelJ** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:41 am

Before I bottle my pale ale I am going to take a sample from the top. If it is good I will burn off a few pints and then bottle. I am wondering if there is just a concentration of bad beer right above the trub.

I use the word acidic because it is all I have reference to for a description. I have found this https://www.microhomebrew.com/brewing-r ... f-flavors/ which I am going to use to try and nail down the off flavor.