Hop Sack/DME Question

[BrownstotheBone]

Getting ready to make my 4th and 5th batches soon. I've never used the DME (only the LME) or added a hop sack yet so I have a couple questions.

The instructions are mostly clear but I know how things aren't always what they seem. Is there something I should do different than what is stated? Boiling time? Mixing?
I picked up a couple refills a while back (Downtown Amber Ale and Patriots Pride) Both have slightly different directions when it comes to adding the second half of the DME.
One says to boil the hop sack for 10 minutes then slowly add the rest of the DME, remove from heat. The other says to boil hop sack for 10 mins then remove from heat, and then add the rest of the DME.

Not sure if this is for a reason or a misprint. So you can see why I'm confused. Of course they also tell you that you can have beer in 3 weeks as well , so you can see my skepticism.
Also, I take it the hop sack stays in the wort for 3 weeks? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

The Downtown Amber Ale:




The Patriots Pride:

[The_Professor]

I see that it says to remove from heat in both cases before adding the final malt extracts.

If you have a 2 gallon pot, I would suggest boiling a gallon of water and adding all of the unhopped extract for the short hop boil then adding the Mr. Beer HME when you remove it from the heat. If you do that you may want to chill the boiled wort in an ice bath to cool it down. Since the volume of boiled wort would be larger cold water may not do the trick.

[BrownstotheBone]

I see that it says to remove from heat in both cases before adding the final malt extracts.

If you have a 2 gallon pot, I would suggest boiling a gallon of water and adding all of the unhopped extract for the short hop boil then adding the Mr. Beer HME when you remove it from the heat. If you do that you may want to chill the boiled wort in an ice bath to cool it down. Since the volume of boiled wort would be larger cold water may not do the trick.

Oh yea. I know about not boiling the HME. My confusion was after the 4 cups cool water, add half of the DME, do the boil 5-20 minutes??, then add the hops for 10.

THEN

1 set of directions says to take it off the heat and add the rest of the DME, the other says add the DME then take it off the heat.

It's that last part with the split DME that I'm questioning. To heat or not to heat? Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: Then how long do I boil the half the DME for? 5-20 is a big difference. And is the 10 minute hop sack time included in the DME boil or additional?

[jpsherman]

I see that it says to remove from heat in both cases before adding the final malt extracts.

If you have a 2 gallon pot, I would suggest boiling a gallon of water and adding all of the unhopped extract for the short hop boil then adding the Mr. Beer HME when you remove it from the heat. If you do that you may want to chill the boiled wort in an ice bath to cool it down. Since the volume of boiled wort would be larger cold water may not do the trick.

Oh yea. I know about not boiling the HME. My confusion was after the 4 cups cool water, add half of the DME, do the boil 5-20 minutes??, then add the hops for 10.

THEN

1 set of directions says to take it off the heat and add the rest of the DME, the other says add the DME then take it off the heat.

It's that last part with the split DME that I'm questioning. To heat or not to heat? Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: Then how long do I boil the half the DME for? 5-20 is a big difference. And is the 10 minute hop sack time included in the DME boil or additional?

Looks like they are telling you to add the hops after the DME hits a hot break and subsides. It may take 5-20 minutes until the hot break is done and the wort its just boiling instead of foaming. Then add hops for a ten minute boil as soon as the foaming subsides.

[BrownstotheBone]

I see that it says to remove from heat in both cases before adding the final malt extracts.

If you have a 2 gallon pot, I would suggest boiling a gallon of water and adding all of the unhopped extract for the short hop boil then adding the Mr. Beer HME when you remove it from the heat. If you do that you may want to chill the boiled wort in an ice bath to cool it down. Since the volume of boiled wort would be larger cold water may not do the trick.

Oh yea. I know about not boiling the HME. My confusion was after the 4 cups cool water, add half of the DME, do the boil 5-20 minutes??, then add the hops for 10.

THEN

1 set of directions says to take it off the heat and add the rest of the DME, the other says add the DME then take it off the heat.

It's that last part with the split DME that I'm questioning. To heat or not to heat? Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: Then how long do I boil the half the DME for? 5-20 is a big difference. And is the 10 minute hop sack time included in the DME boil or additional?

Looks like they are telling you to add the hops after the DME hits a hot break and subsides. It may take 5-20 minutes until the hot break is done and the wort its just boiling instead of foaming. Then add hops for a ten minute boil as soon as the foaming subsides.

OK thanks. That answers my hops/boiling question.

But they're splitting the DME in half. Half is going into cool water and being brought up to a boil, then the hops are added.
After that do you add the rest of the DME while it's still heating or take it off the heat and stir it in? They do it both ways in the instructions and I don't know if it's for a reason or just a screw up, or doesn't matter at all.

[jpsherman]

I would add all of the DME into the cool water. They are splitting the DME because it will darken somewhat as it boils. But the DME will clump much worse if you add some after the boil and take forever to dissolve.

I would much rather brew a beer that is slightly darker in color than spend an extra 15 minutes stirring DME clumps. If you still want to split the DME, you should definitely take it off the heat first. It could scorch a bit over high heat if you don't stir well enough. And if you didn't take it off the heat while stirring the clumps you would be boiling the hops longer.

[BrownstotheBone]

I would add all of the DME into the cool water. They are splitting the DME because it will darken somewhat as it boils. But the DME will clump much worse if you add some after the boil and take forever to dissolve.

I would much rather brew a beer that is slightly darker in color than spend an extra 15 minutes stirring DME clumps. If you still want to split the DME, you should definitely take it off the heat first. It could scorch a bit over high heat if you don't stir well enough. And if you didn't take it off the heat while stirring the clumps you would be boiling the hops longer.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I really appreciate the info.
You just never know with those instructions sometimes, and being a "DME virgin" I needed some reassurance and understanding.

[TimeTraveler]

If you have a wisk, sanitize that and after you pour the DME into the cold water and slowly start to heat it up, use the wisk to stir. It helps when trying to keep DME clumps from forming - or if they do - to break them apart. You need more than 4 cups of water if you are doing an extended boil. The water will boil off and reduce volume. So use more that the 4 cups! If it will be a long boil, 1 gallon is good. A shorter boil can get away with maybe 0.5 gal. You will want to cool the wort down before you pour it into your LBK - so only use the amount of water you need. The more hot water, the longer it will take to cool down even with cooling coils, ice around the pot, etc.

[BrownstotheBone]

If you have a wisk, sanitize that and after you pour the DME into the cold water and slowly start to heat it up, use the wisk to stir. It helps when trying to keep DME clumps from forming - or if they do - to break them apart. You need more than 4 cups of water if you are doing an extended boil. The water will boil off and reduce volume. So use more that the 4 cups! If it will be a long boil, 1 gallon is good. A shorter boil can get away with maybe 0.5 gal. You will want to cool the wort down before you pour it into your LBK - so only use the amount of water you need. The more hot water, the longer it will take to cool down even with cooling coils, ice around the pot, etc.

Thank you. Really appreciate the great info. I have a word document that I save stuff in for quick reference and review. This thread has been great for that. Consider yourself entered.

I suppose I just adjust the water level in the LBK to whatever it takes after the wort then. ? (because of the boil off)

This is precisely the type of info I was sure I was missing. Everything said in this thread would have been flubbed. God I love the BORG.

[rickbray66]

Ok....I'm going to take a stab here at another potential reason for splitting up the DME into your boil. Since you are only using 4 cups of water (1 quart), using only 100 grams of DME puts your OG at 1.040, which is perfect for hop utilization. Since the boil is only 10 minutes, you shouldn't lose too much water to evaporation. I would recommend doing a test boil with pure water ahead of time so that you know for certain how much water does evaporate. If you've got a big enough pot, you could bump it up to 2 quarts and 200 grams of DME, or even 3 quarts and 300 grams of DME. But as The_Professor already pointed out, the more you boil, it may require an ice bath in order to chill your wort down to a cooler temp so that when you add it to cold water in the LBK, you're ready for pitching temps. You can find a nice calculator here (http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm) to help knowing what temp your wort needs to be before mixing it with cold water to reach a desired temp. Having the rest of your top-off water chilled in the refrigerator greatly helps this endeavor.

I would probably go ahead and stick with the 1 quart and 100 grams of DME like the instructions indicate. At flameout (after your 10 minute boil), remove from heat and then add the rest of the DME and the HME and mix accordingly. Add the DME slowly while stirring and you shouldn't have much trouble with clumps. Also, DME is very sticky, especially once the steam makes contact. I usually dump my DME into a sanitized bowl during prep, as I hate dealing with sticky DME at the end of the bag while trying to pour.

Let us know how it turns out.


Rick

[Bluejaye]

This is precisely the type of info I was sure I was missing. Everything said in this thread would have been flubbed.

I'm glad you posted the original question! I have yet to use DME, but have a couple of recipes that use it that I'll be trying next brewing cycle. I had no idea it should be mixed with cold water to help avoid clumping. I'm so used to LME, I'm sure I would have added the DME to the boiling water and had trouble.

[rickbray66]

This is precisely the type of info I was sure I was missing. Everything said in this thread would have been flubbed.

I'm glad you posted the original question! I have yet to use DME, but have a couple of recipes that use it that I'll be trying next brewing cycle. I had no idea it should be mixed with cold water to help avoid clumping. I'm so used to LME, I'm sure I would have added the DME to the boiling water and had trouble.

I've used both cold water and warm water. Just add slowly while stirring/mixing and you shouldn't have a problem. The steam, however, will cause the DME to get real sticky, which can be a pain when trying to pour it out of a bag. For that reason, (and also for measuring weight), I like to put mine into a bowl before brewing.


Rick

[BrownstotheBone]

Thanks for the additional info rickbray66. Taking notes!

....and yes I know what you mean Bluejaye. I've only used LME what? 2 times now out of 3 batches? Easy peezy.

I read through those DME directions like 8 times and thought.. "There has to be more to this, I better run it by the BORG." Sure enough.

Hell, everything I learned (which is a lot!) the last few months was from everyone here. Because of that I was so successful this last time around that I'm now FULLY understanding why it's called an "obsession".

..and I've just scratched the surface.

M-u-s-t g-e-t d-e-d-i-c-a-t-e-d f-r-i-d-g-e ...

Right Inkleg!?

[Yankeedag]

I came here late in the game. When I used DME (still do for starters), I would add the DME to the cold water that I just put on the flame. That way, there isn't any "steem" clumping up the DME as I try to add it. I just pour in the DME and mix it with a wisk. I don't worry about the little clumps, as I give it a stir once in a while during the heating up time. Never had a problem doing it that way.

I doubt a 10 min boil would change the color of the DME if that were a concern.
with your small add ins of 100g of DME, you could always use that larger pot, do your quick boil, and then after flame out, just add some of that cold water directly to the pot. That's also a lazy way to rinse that sucker out.
If I didn't follow this thread back far enough, and missed the main objective to this, um... sorry.

[BrownstotheBone]

Thank you very very much for your reply Yankeedag!

Can't say how much I appreciate everyone's individual opinions.