Pet peeves about dog owners

[mashani]

Mashini - you so totally rule. Totally agree with everything you've said. I can tell you've explained this before. Nice Job, and thanks for all the editing.

We are so on the same page. I live my dog relations by the old credo: May I only be worthy of my dog's devotion. And it is never the dog, always me messing up and not managing or training.

Monty

I hate to say this, but I have to explain this often... to dog owners who bring a shell-shocked barely not a puppy to us who has been "WTF BBQ'd" by a local shock collar trainer that is massively obedient - except for when it's not - and pisses on the floor everytime they look at it funny (the ultimate calming signal, because everything else failed), or is afraid of and/or reactive towards larger men in general, or suddenly bit their kid because of whatever, and now feel they have to put it down because that trainer can't fix these behaviors, blah blah blah...

[D34THSPAWN]

All these problems make me happy the only one we have is our two playing way too rough and not being properly socialized (the big on at least) got him a bit too late for that, little one did puppy classes so he is better

[DaYooper]

Great discussion!

[Brewbirds]

Jazzy, the little black and tan dachshund that my mom got from a rescue group, is "submissive pee'er".

It is a strange thing to us because she is a seemingly emotionally balanced and happy dog that shows no aggressiveness, timidity or anxiety.

She doesn't display any signs the would lead us to assume she had a rough or abusive past that is either obvious or subtle.

I don't think she had much training before my mom got her (but she was still in puppy stage, age unknown), as she had no leash discipline and pulled until she would cough and choke to the point that the vet thinks she has larynx damage.

While she seems perfectly well adjusted and happy she will pee, drop, role and present tummy, tail wagging the whole time (often while still peeing) whenever someone comes over, even someone she knows from frequent visits and on occasion even when we have come home from being out of the house on errands.

She will also get up after that and do a behavior where she is checking to see if she had in fact peed and appear to be appalled to discover that she had or thrilled and "dance for joy" to discover that she hadn't.

The interesting thing is that while she was/is "otherwise" completely housebroken it was the Westie who was already a couple of years old when we took her in (and we knew she came from a harsh environment and was very timid) was not a submissive pee'er but was other incontinent indoors. The owner avowed that the dog was housebroken before and has become so after a short while since living here but I do believe it was anxiety or stress related. I'm sure there was some feeling of abandonment/separation going on early on but the original owner is a neighbor and came over often and gave her plenty of affectionate attention (the husband was the mean one) so she settled in pretty good after a while.

[mashani]

Does the little dog pee as soon as she sees these people regardless of what they are doing, or is it when they approach her or lean over her or look at her or talk to her or ... [insert anything here]?

If the later, try having people only approach her in an arc (not straight on) and not look her in the eyes or straight at her, or even call her name and act exciting about seeing her until she has calmed down, and best to not even approach her and let her come to them instead of them going to her... and when she does try just bending their knees, or kneeling on the floor, or sitting down somewhere instead of leaning over if she comes to them and seems to want to be petted... just not with their body over top of hers... and see if any of that makes any difference. It could be some sort of anxiety from the past (IE from some long ago big thing that stepped on her once that you know nothing about) combined with excitement that just pushes her over the top. Or something totally different, hard to say.

That's the kind of an issue that if I was working with I'd want to board your dog for some weeks... and work with lots of random friends and see if I could get more of a clue on the real trigger(s) and then try to counter condition it. (in laymen terms this is simply trying to create setups for the dog to succeed in not doing what you don't want it to do based on observation, and rewarding it for success... and then slowly making things more difficult but still where success is likely until you work past the problem... psychology/behavior adjustment "jedi mind trick" as such, it just takes time).

EDIT: I should mention that sometimes what we call a calming signal isn't just done for the benefit of the other "animals" but also the self. That's why I am suggesting excitement may be coming into play in what pushes things over the top based on your description.

[Brewbirds]

Mashani you may have it figured exactly. We don't have frequent guests but when someone does come over both dogs head straight for them, tails awaggin', and wanting attention vs. running away or aggression. But I guess almost everyone reacts to them by bending down to pet them vs kneeling. So I guess they are looking at her but I can't say that I noticed if she is reacting to eye contact or not.

The westies' mom, when she comes over will get down low but Jazzy has usually peed by the time she can get to the ground.

I don't discipline or rather I don't confer negative signals to her when this happens I just get a towel and clean up without acknowledging that she has done something because that is what my mom did.

So when folks come over should I say not to look at her/ make eye contact?

[D34THSPAWN]

We had a similar problem with our dog, still do occasionally. He would always pee when certain people came over or he met them. We started introducing him to people outside to avoid cleaning up pee but now we are able to just leave him in the kennel for a few minutes until he calms down, his was more of an excited thing but he would pee the second they touched him. Letting him calm down first and ignoring the moose as much as possible for the first few minutes has done the trick.

Not dramatizing coming and going seemed to help.

[mashani]

Try having them turn their sides to the dog when she runs towards them, instead of facing the dog directly, which in itself is a calming action (this can help for dogs that run at you and jump on you too out of excitement) - and then when they bend down they also will not be directly over the dog if their side is to the dog. This might help. Eye contact may have nothing at all to do with it, but as a general rule of thumb looking at the dog is fine, just not long duration direct eye contact. So perhaps tell folks to try to look at her backside (they will still see all of her, but won't inadvertently give direct gaze then). You can train a dog to accept long duration direct eye contact and not feel stressed, but for a dog that this has not been done for it can be a stressful, or even a threatening/aggressive behavior depending on the dogs personality / background.

You could also use management, IE tether them to something until they calm down... then let them interact.

I use lots of simple body language adjustments like this when I work with overly excitable dogs and also fearful dogs IE dogs who are afraid of men, which is a common thing I run into.

I would guess in your case it's a matter of being excited mixed with some underlying anxiety from something that happened one time in the past - probably by accident - but it was enough that she remembers it. Dog phobias are weird, in that they can forget all sorts of bad stuff that happened up to some point, but there is this one little thing that happened at some point - got left out in a thunderstorm - someone I really liked stepped on me or punted me across the room - by accident even - and it freaking hurt - etc.. that just becomes a permanent trigger until counter conditioned, which can be tough sometimes (first you have to really find the exact trigger if it's not totally obvious like thunder or lightning).

[Brewbirds]

Oh boy there is a subject... she does do the total freak out for thunder. Also if a cell phone or fire alarm battery gets so low it starts to beep she does freak out. And it takes a while before she calms after I plug in or change batteries. Those are the only things that seem to upset her, she otherwise seems so well adjusted.

Here another one for you: the little Westie isn't phased by thunder or beeps etc. but runs away in fear whenever I open the freezer door, which is in the pantry on the side of the house but comes running when I open the fridge because they get fresh carrots in the morning instead of dog biscuits. In fact they can both tell when there is a bag of carrots coming out of the grocery bags; and, I kid you not they can tell if I have a bag of carrots out or am cutting an apple when they are outside in the yard and will come to the door scratching to get in.

God I love dogs, they have never ceased to amaze me in all the years I have been around them.

I guess some have had odd behavior issues but not a single one has ever been "undesirable" no matter in what circumstance I've come upon them.

[mashani]

If I didn't love dogs I'd be insane LOL.

Freezer is interesting... maybe a smell that you don't sense. Or it makes a noise you can't hear... or something like that. Who knows... It could even be that before you got the westy someone locked it in some place as punishment or for what they thought was management but their timing was such that it was actually punishment to the dog - and whatever it is about the freezer might remind the dog of it.

One of my dogs hates bathrooms with the door closed. I think she got locked in the bathroom a lot before someone dumped her on the side of the road. I had to do some counter conditioning and trust building to get her to go into park bathrooms with me when we are out and about. She still doesn't like it but she trusts that as long as I'm in there with her it's ok and that I'll never leave her in there without me. It is 100% specific to bathrooms, the smells she gets from them are what trigger the anxiety and the door closing ramps it up.

Have you tried a thundershirt or other tight vest or weighted vest or other form of compression clothing (even a really tight fitting doggie sweater) for thunder/noise? I've found that the same types of interventions that work for autistic/aspergers children with sensory stimulation triggered stuff can also work for dogs in some cases with that kind of issue. I have a good bit of experience with kids on the spectrum as I have helped train dogs for folks with them and have one of my own - one of my dogs is actually trained to help my kid. Mostly just to keep him from freaking out.

You can counter condition thunder anxiety, but it's a lot of work. Often it's easier for people to use management, some even use anxiety drugs - because the counter conditioning almost has to be done by the owner, unless they are willing to pay for lots of boarding so a trainer is actually always with their dog. I had one dog that I boarded that was the most severely affected I've ever seen (and I didn't know until it happened) *chew her way out of a metal crate* and break a tooth in a thunderstorm that popped up when we were all asleep. Woke up with a dog running around in circles panting and drooling and bleeding all over the place. That was interesting.

[Brewbirds]

The thunder thing has always amazed me because I have always had multiple dogs since I was little. I'd have one dog who reacted to storms while the rest weren't fazed.

The vest/sweater idea I have not heard of. I would have thought that if you start putting one on the dog every time the thunder starts that it would reinforce the behavior but then I guess it is fear and not a behavior issue.

Years ago we had an Airedale that wanted to get into the big screen tv, every time there was thunder she would make a b-line for the tv and start "scratching to get in". She never trembled or whined and was fine once I pet her and diverted her attention. I guess she thought of the tv as a door to a dark room.

[BlackDuck]

Years ago we had an Airedale that wanted to get into the big screen tv, every time there was thunder she would make a b-line for the tv and start "scratching to get in".

Now I can't get the movie Poltergeist out of my head. But with a dog in front of the tv instead of the little girl.

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[Gymrat]

Ralph was never even the least bit concerned about storms until recently. I don't know if one spooked him while I was at work or what. But out of nowhere, when one hit overnight, he would wake me up and start fidgeting nervously. The first time that happened I just reassured him and went back to sleep. The next day I thought about it and was concerned that maybe he got spooked while I was at work. So I decided to see if I could train him to go to the basement in a storm. That way he could go someplace he feels safe while he is alone. So the next time a storm hit and he woke me up, I took him downstairs and we slept there. The next time a storm hit over night I did the same thing. The third time a storm hit, it was when I was watching TV. There was a crack of thunder and Ralph went over and stood at the top of the stairs and waited for me. That dog does learn quick.

[Brewbirds]

Years ago we had an Airedale that wanted to get into the big screen tv, every time there was thunder she would make a b-line for the tv and start "scratching to get in".

Now I can't get the movie Poltergeist out of my head. But with a dog in front of the tv instead of the little girl.

image.jpg

Yup something like that and it didn't matter if the tv was on or off. I had to get to her fast because the cloth covered speakers were on the bottom.

@Gymrat that is cool that Ralph waits for you to go with him, he doesn't want you to be up there in the scary part of the house.

I wonder if a transformer blew close by while you were gone that day.