mashing efficiencies

[mtsoxfan]

So I've been battling the demons of efficiencies... consistently falling short of projected... about 10 pts lower. I have been brewing really good beer, so I was trying to forget about it. But, I can't. Today, I fell 9 pts short, acording to QBrew. I should have hit 1.077 on this 5 gals, but only reached 1.068. Now 1.068 is fine, if I don't think about it, but I do, did, and did some more. I'm thinking my batch sparging just isn't right. I add water, stir, let sit 15 - 20 minutes, vorlauf, and drain slowly. Twice each batch. Still come up short. Today, for squeaks and giggles, I put another 2.5 gals into tun and let sit while I worked on brew. I ran off 2.5 gals of 1.028 wort, which I boiled, cooled, and is sitting in fridge while I wonder what to do with it. This mash was 152*, others at 156*. My sparge temps are water 170* dropping to 155* or so when added. Second sparge was 180*, dropping to 165* when added and stirred. I'm using a rectagular tun with braided stainess hose as a manifold. Doing the math, I ended up with 65%, 1.077 would have been 75%.
Any ideas?
This recipe was 10# British 2 Row, 3# rye malt, 1# Carapils, 1.5# flaked rye, which I steeped, but figured it into the efficiency because I steeped in 1st runoff, 150* for 30 minutes

[Gymrat]

How fine are you crushing your grains? And how long are you mashing? Anything 152 and above I mash for an hour, anything below 152 and I mash for 90 minutes. Your efficiency will increase with a finer crush on your grains but if you get it too fine you will have stuck sparges. So it takes a bit of fine tuning.

[Gymrat]

How fine are you crushing your grains? And how long are you mashing? Anything 152 and above I mash for an hour, anything below 152 and I mash for 90 minutes. Your efficiency will increase with a finer crush on your grains but if you get it too fine you will have stuck sparges. So it takes a bit of fine tuning.

Also what is your PH during the mash? PH is a big determining factor in mash efficiency.

[mtsoxfan]

I have not checked PH. I tried with pool strips...PIA!!.. When I bought my grains, I forgot I wanted them.
The grains are crushed pretty fine. The hulls are still large, but the grain is small to powder. I have had stuck sparges the last two batches. I have been mashing 60 - 70 minutes, depending on brew. Even my higher temp mashes are 10 pts shy.
The mash time makes sense, as I let a third sparge experiment (to be used later) netted me 2.5 gals of 1.028. It was longer than a 20 minute soak. THAT surprised me a lot. Since I already had my preboil volume, I will be saving that for...something, not sure what yet. Even looking at the sample in the tube, it is so light in color compared to the fermenting beer, I find it hard to believe it is 1.028.
So far, what I'm taking away is I need to mash longer than I have been. Checking PH next time as well.

[haerbob3]

What mash technique are you using? As Gymrat stated your crush may be off. If I understand your post you steeped the flaked rye? I doubt that you got any conversion on the flaked rye, it needs the base malt to convert. Which is what I suspect. I ran your grains through Beersmith. Our numbers match, the few point difference between the software is ok. With the flaked rye, 1.075 without it 1.067.

You could use PH5.2 it will set your PH.

[MadBrewer]

If you share some more info im sure we can all help out. What do you set your effeciency for in QBrew? What is you recipe size? You should base recipe size (batch size) on you post boil volume not what goes into your fermenter. A big factor besides your crush is what is your water amount per lb of grain for mashing ?

[mtsoxfan]

HB I use a double batch sparge. Generally 2.5 gals in the first, and 2.0 in the second. I adjust the amount of the second depending on what I need to make up pre boil volume.
I crush at the store, but it comes out small pieces/powder... stuck runoffs...

I steeped in the first runnings, so it has the base malt in it. It made sense to me, as I didn't want to have an even higher chance of stuck sparge, and have room to add more water if needed to raise temp. I could be wrong on that, might have happened once or twice before... I also like squeezing the steeping grains before removing.

I used 1.4/1 ratio on the mash. 5 gals to 14#. That left me with just enough room to stir and add more to adjust temp. I usually use 1.5/1 or 1.75/1, depending on grain bill.

I don't see a place on QBrew to adjust eff. number.

[haerbob3]

Ok. Let's see what we can do.

I crush at the store, but it comes out small pieces/powder... stuck runoffs...
Your crush is too fine

I steeped in the first runnings, so it has the base malt in it
You need to include the flakes with the grains. It is the grains that have the enzymes need to convert the starches in the flaked grains. The runnings have the sugar from the grains. Unfortunately the enzymes stay with the grain. The 9 points you are short you would have gotten if you mashed the flakes. The fact that you got a 1.028 wort yet shows that the grains in the mash were still converting starches to sugar. It once was common practice to remash the grains 2 or three times. The resulting worts were either added to the first or were fremented separately.

[MadBrewer]

I used 1.4/1 ratio on the mash. 5 gals to 14#. That left me with just enough room to stir and add more to adjust temp. I usually use 1.5/1 or 1.75/1, depending on grain bill.

I don't see a place on QBrew to adjust eff. number.

Seems like your crush is ok. I get small broken pieces and some dust/powder at the bottom of the bag of crushed malt. That is normal, unless you are getting a whole lot of dust. Also seems like your water to grain amounts are ok. I see an increase in efficiency when I use a thinner mash. 1.25 qts/lb is my standard and I see 75% with that. If I boost that to 1.5 qts/lb I can see 80-85% efficiency. I dont' want to go that high. 70-75% is just fine.

Anyway, the first thing you need to do is look in Qbrew and see what the efficiency is set at. I used QBrew for several of my first All Grain batches with great success. Go to Options at the top too bar, click configure, click on calculations tab and see what efficiency is set at. This is a personal adjustment. When you say you are missing your efficiency that is not necessarily true if you dont' know what efficiency you are aiming for. Lower your efficiency in QBrew until it matches the OG's you are getting out of the crush you use, the water ratio and process. This is YOUR efficiency. Sure you can try things to tweak that, but if your process is producing a lower efficiency on average, you just need to settle into that range with what you set efficiency at. It's not a bad thing, as long as you are more that 65% efficiency. 70-75% efficiency to shoot for if possible.

[mashani]

I steeped in the first runnings, so it has the base malt in it
You need to include the flakes with the grains. It is the grains that have the enzymes need to convert the starches in the flaked grains. The runnings have the sugar from the grains. Unfortunately the enzymes stay with the grain. The 9 points you are short you would have gotten if you mashed the flakes. The fact that you got a 1.028 wort yet shows that the grains in the mash were still converting starches to sugar. It once was common practice to remash the grains 2 or three times. The resulting worts were either added to the first or were fremented separately.

If I follow what you are doing, which I am interpreting the same way haerbob3 is, then haerbob3 is right and ^^^^ is quite potentially "it".

Everything that has starches should go in the mash.

[MadBrewer]

^^^ But he said he's been having efficiency issues, not just with this batch only. Unless he's doing the same thing with every batch.

Plus the difference between 1.5 lbs of Flaked Rye being steeped or mashed is only a couple gravity points (3 occording to QBrew).

[MadBrewer]

You said you are using QBrew right? I punched in what you said your recipe was and for 5 gals at 65% efficiency I come up with an OG of 1.071. At 75% efficiency I get an OG of 1.081. To hit the 1.077 OG you said you wanted, I put the efficiency in at 71%. All while selecting the Flaked Rye was Steeped.

To come up with an OG of 1.068 I have to set efficiency at 62% for what your recipe was for 5 gals. So there's confusion right there since we aren't seeing the same numbers. How were you calculating efficiency if you didn't know where to change efficiency in QBrew?

[haerbob3]

I ran his recipe on Beersmith. From OP's first post:
1. Single Infusion Mash Medium Body
2. Batch Sparge, Drain Mash Tun before sparging

My goal was to see the GP difference between mashing the flakes and not. The result equaled his point shortage. Flaked grains are cooked to in order to make the starches accessible for conversion, and to help prevent stuck sparges. Flaked grains are unmalted, lacking the enzymes needed for conversion.

[MadBrewer]

I understand that and yes he should mash anything that needs to be mashed. I think the original poster should play around with the efficiency setting in QBrew to match what he is seeing out of his recipes on a consistant basis. We tailor our recipes to a set efficiency that we get used to. That is going to be different for everyone.

[haerbob3]

Agreed. I haven't used QBrew in 5 or 6 years, can you set an equipment profile? OP also needs to have a set methodology to get his software set. What efficiency is he working on? Mash efficiency, Brew-house efficiency. What king of losses does he have? As you know there are so many factors that effect efficiency.