A tale of two Roggenbiers

[mashani]

This is what I'm brewing tomorrow. 4.8 gallons total - but instead of a PM BIAB, I'm doing a full BIAB and then a separate extract/steep beer. I will then be able to compare the results. Extract batch is my experiment for Kvass wort...

Roggenbier is like German Wheat beer, except with Rye instead of Wheat. Lots of rye. So much that it seems insane. Hurray!

AG BIAB version, 2.4 gallons

3# Malted Rye
2# Munich
0.5# Flaked Rye
0.5# C120
1/8oz Stella @60
1/8oz Stella @10

OG: 1.056

Short Boil Extract version, 2.4 gallons.

2.5# MoreBeer Rye Extract (70% 2 row, 20% rye, 10% C40)
1 Jar (1.21#) Kvass Wort (From Local Russian Food Store - this is meant to make a low abv rye table beer/soda like substance)
0.5# Dark DME (2 row, Munich, Dark Crystal, pinch of black malt)
1/4oz Stella @20

OG: 1.053

Wyeast 3333 German Wheat, a 2 month old smack pack, split between both batches, no starter, my temps aren't very warm, so need to under-pitch to get real Banana.

Done as 2.4 vs 2.5 gallons each to get some headspace. This yeast needs headspace.

In very small amounts, Stella tastes like German/French hops (sort of a Tettnang/Strisselspalt kind of mix). In the short boil version I may get some slight pine and citrus too, but that should still taste good (pine & rye are friends). In the BIAB version it's probably not noticeable.

Kvass wort has about 1/2 the caloric value of LME from what I can figure. But a lot of rye flavor. So I am hoping it kicks up the rye flavor into similar levels as the AG version. No other way for me to even try to make an extract Roggenbier that is close to authentic.

[mashani]

I brewed both of these, everything went hitch free, but I had to stir the BIAB mash often lot because all that rye wanted to goop up and turn the whole thing into a giant dough ball. So it was a long brew day for me. But I had the time to spend for a change.

I updated the OP with the measured OG's of each batch.

I've got a heating pad between the fermenters on my covered shelf, trying to keep my ambient temps between 68-70 until fermentation goes into high gear. I want more banana then cloves in this beer, all that rye is spicy enough.

The Kvass Wort tasted good and rye like, nowhere near as sweet as malt extract, so I was right, it's about 1/2 the calories, worked out that way in the OG measurement. Hopefully that works well, that would make an easy brew day for a future Roggenbier. Biggest trouble with it was trying to figure out how to open the jar. (It must make sense if you are Russian, but I ended up just punching a hole through the lid LOL).

[Beer-lord]

2 beers in one day sounds like fun.
I'm a huge rye fan and have been working on a rye stout recipe as well as a ryeIPL.

[mashani]

It was fun, but I am tired now

I love rye too. Unlike the IPL and probably the stout you are making, these beers are really low in IBUs, like 16 maybe, more like a true German wheat in that regard. They are really yeast/rye driven from a flavor standpoint, very much like a German wheat beer, except spicy/earthy rye. I'm probably not going to get a whole lot of flavor from the hops I used maybe some small amount of pine or anise or citrus might slip through, but that's all good with the rye. I just used the Stella because it's the closest thing I had to German hops on hand, and my freezer is loaded with hops, so I wasn't gonna buy some more. Only had to use a tiny bit because of how potent they are which keeps them more like a European hop then if you use a lot of them. I'd have had to buy 3+oz of German hops, and would not have been able to attempt a short boil for the extract version if I used them also.

The 3333 is going to make them more like a crystalweizen, in that I won't be able to stir the yeast up into it like in a Hefe, but it should still taste nice.

[mashani]

I bottled these.

Both beers finished at 1.011. I don't know why they both finished at 1.011, but they did. They both attenuated more then I expected. Sometimes that happens when you underpitch in a highly oxygenated nutrient rich wort. I think more generations of hungry daughter cells that are adapted to the wort grow and go nuts.

The extract version actually seems to taste a bit drier then the BIAB version and because of this seemed just as spicy even though there is more overall rye in the BIAB version - likely due to the lower overall amount of "malty malt" as in Munich and Crystal. But clearly the Kvass wort did it's job.

Both tasted good out of the fermenter. Neither seemed overly sweet even though they are both only around 16 IBUs. They will be crystal clear unless they develop chill haze. Both seemed overly thick/well bodied for the FG and had a silky and almost oily mouth feel, the AG version more so. Must be from all the rye.

Even though I intentionally underpitched these beers, they didn't seem green - I could have drank a bunch out of the fermenters.

In order of predominance, the flavor I could detect at this point was:

RYE!!!! (spicy / earthy)
Bready
A nice amount of banana - but not over the top - more subdued then if I had used Weihenstephan yeast
Little bit of stone fruit, little bit of caramel
Some clove, but mellow - also more subdued then if I had used Weihenstephan yeast
Slight anise. As if I had used Stresselspalt. Which is nice.

Both beers had all those, proportions a bit different of course.

I carbed this stuff at 4 volumes. That will add a bit of extra perceived bitterness as well as lighten the mouth feel a bit. It will be interesting to see if all this rye aids or suppresses head retention.

Looking forward to cracking some open in about 3 weeks.

[mashani]

These both are yummy. Like drinking rye banana bread with plum jam and some spices sprinkled on top.

P1100223.JPG (51.72 KiB) Viewed 1243 times

[Inkleg]

Like drinking rye banana bread with plum jam and some spices sprinkled on top.

YYYYYYYYYUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mashani]

Drinking more, and yep, this stuff is good with caveats. As in if you like something like a Weizenbock with the dark fruit flavors, and you like Rye beer, then you could like this a lot. I do.

But if you aren't a fan of rye beer, don't even think about it. This beer is all about the rye. The rye finish is intense and it lingers. The rye and high carb levels makes it seem more bitter then it is.

Even the extract version is good and well worth brewing if a quick brew day is required and kvass wort is at hand. Neither has good head retention or lacing, that would be my only bitch. 60% rye is to blame there I think. If anyone tries this I can say with authority that you do really want to carb this at high volumes - you know that "rye mouthfeel" - almost oily seeming - that you get in a rye ale/rye ipa with around 20% rye? Well... this has that in much greater abundance, and it would be really annoying if it was carbed lightly. The high carb levels keep it feeling lighter.

I think I'm going to brew more of this in the spring at a 1.04something gravity for post-cycling consumption but sub 10% of the rye for some wheat - or maybe use flaked wheat instead of flaked rye - to hopefully help with the head, and maybe some juniper berries at the end, as I think the juniper would be nice in this, it would make sort of a "session sathi" kind of beer.

I'm glad I made this, channeling some of my ancient (pre Reinheitsgebot) inner German/Viking. It's cool to brew something that virtually disappeared from existence from the 1400's until the late 1900s, due to said law.