Competition: Good, Very Good, Some Doubts

[John Sand]

I was at a competition today, and got my scores right away. My APA got a 34, my IPA a 25. And I'll take Good and Very Good. Except that the 25 isn't quite right. Because one judge added 4+3+11+4+5 and got 25. I get 27. He also adjusted the first 4 down from a 6, you can see where he erased. And he noted "Baby Powder" as an off flavor and aroma? And he was the event organizer, and a competitor, unless there's someone else there with the same first initial and uncommon last name. And he won a bunch of ribbons. And my other judge holds no certification, but at least he didn't taste baby powder. Maybe I'm wrong, but all of this makes me uncomfortable. I don't think this is sour grapes, I'm not that kind of guy, and you can't make beer from grapes. On top of all of this, the BOS winners were all exotic: mead, vegetable beer, gose. I'm not going to let all of this bother me, but I think I'll skip this competition next year. Let me add that I am not suggesting intentional impropriety by anyone. I know that judges are volunteers, and hard to come by. But I also wonder if one can be completely unbiased under the circumstances. What say you?

[FedoraDave]

I think it would be inappropriate for an entrant to also be a judge, but only in the category he was entering.

Rather than concentrate on the numbers, take the comments and study and evaluate them. Especially the ones that might address your recipe and/or your process. If the comments mention an ingredient that isn't really a part of that beer's style profile, you can make changes. If off-flavors or aromas are noted, then maybe your process needs re-examination.

I had a similar feeling after my last competition. I felt my pilsner was a real home run, but it scored lower than I thought it deserved. But with pilsners, so much of the success is dependent on the process, so maybe I was setting myself up for a disappointment.

Keep in mind that APAs and IPAs are probably going to be the categories with the most entries, so perhaps the margin for error is less forgiving.

As far as BOS winners being exotic beers, it almost stands to reason. They're harder to make well than other styles, so making a good one sort of sets the bar higher. I don't say it's fair, but I can understand it happening.

[mashani]

And he noted "Baby Powder" as an off flavor and aroma

He must be one of those beer snob reviewers from the other thread.

What kinds of hops did you use? Something floral perhaps? That would not be an "off" flavor or aroma in an IPA/APA regardless. Floral is perfectly appropriate IMHO although perhaps not common in American IPA. Plenty of English IPAs and pale ales have a floral note.

In any case if he was in the comp he should not be judging the comp. Or at least not judging any categories he entered beer in.

[RickBeer]

Perhaps he uses baby powder after he showers? Was he tall, thin, wrinkled his face up at each taste, and named Sheldon?

[MadBrewer]

Was this your first competition? I would take this as a learning experience, it was just a single competition. I wouldn't let it ruin your opinion of competitions. Just like everything else, we can't judge something on one situation, occasion or bad experience. The fact is, not all competitions are created equal. Usually you can find some well ran events, more so than the bad ones. I usually study over the competition website before entering. I look for things like who will be judging, how many entrants are excepted, how the beers will be stored for and handled...etc. All those things make a difference.

The real fact is, sometimes they just don't have the experience to judge properly. You might get stuck with a guy that is simply a volunteer, you might have a guy who likes beer but doesn't brew. Someone that only drinks Light Lagers and gets stuck judging IPA category. You have to take all those things with a grain of salt. In the better competitions, they usually have at least one good judge per flight so that he can "lead" the judging and help the others. Gordon Strong has a great chapter in his book on competitions, it helped shed some light on what happens and how things really go.

I've had some success with competitions, I've entered some no so great comps and I've been lucky enough to find some really well ran events. The hardest part is judging your own beer and getting it ready for competition. I have had a few beers that I thought were great too, but just didnt' quite make the mark of what I was entering them as. I have also had some beers I didn't think were all that and did extremely well at competition. I had a lager once that I knew wouldn't do well as a lager, I entered it as a Blonde Ale and it placed well. I'm just saying it took me a while to get a feel for competitons, get a feel for things and prepare for each completion differently...they are not all the same.

But anyway...Baby Powder, that's a new one.

[John Sand]

Mash, I thought of that too. The closest I could come is that floral hops can be perfume-y in a dry hop. But then he should have said that. The hops were Simcoe, Columbus, Cascade and Centennial, mainstream American IPA hops.
MadBrewer, thanks. No, it isn't my first, it won't be my last, I just won't go back to this one. They didn't post last years results, nor a breakdown of submissions. And I am still learning to brew, and to compete. This was all just too far out.
Dave, I also go to competitions for useful feedback. But "baby powder" isn't useful. I've read seven books, a couple of years of magazines, and thousands of posts on homebrewing. Never heard baby powder before. If you don't know what it is, you can't fix it. And I know taste is personal, last time I disregarded one comment by a judge that the other judge didn't taste. I also believe that the judge didn't judge his own categories. But he was still competing against everyone else for best of show. And I don't agree that exotic beers are harder to make. There is an element of homebrewers that really seek the extreme. If the winners had been a Belgian and a RIS, or Scotch Ale, I'd agree. But banana and cucumber? That sounds like a punch line. My wife noted that all but a couple of ribbons were awarded to people known to the club members. It does make sense that the sponsoring club would submit many entries. And if just one of these things had happened, or two, I wouldn't think about it. But Bad Math+Cucumber BOS+Organizer/Judge/Winner+Baby Powder+Uncertified Judge+Everyone Here Knows Eachother But Me= I'm not wasting my time or beer here again. It may be circumstantial, but it is definitely a preponderance of evidence.

[Dawg LB Steve]

My wife noted that all but a couple of ribbons were awarded to people known to the club members. It does make sense that the sponsoring club would submit many entries. And if just one of these things had happened, or two, I wouldn't think about it. But Bad Math+Cucumber BOS+Organizer/Judge/Winner+Baby Powder+Uncertified Judge+Everyone Here Knows Eachother But Me= I'm not wasting my time or beer here again. It may be circumstantial, but it is definitely a preponderance of evidence.

I kind of got that feeling on my last comp also, most medal winners were members, it was sponsored and put on completely by the club, I had a bronze medal brew submitted that scored less than the bronze score from a couple months earlier, but had a Xmas Ale that didn't medal but went to a mini BOS round and scored 35.5. In the future going to try to stay away from club sponsored events and focus on brewery sponsored or LHBS sponsored.

[John Sand]

I generally plan to go back to a larger club competition in the spring. I had a vague recollection that I'd read the judges name before. So I dug up my old score sheets. Sure enough, same guy last time, also got the math wrong (to my deficit) and made the comment: "fruity pebbles". I'm not making that up, fruity pebbles and baby powder! I think Mash hit it on the nose. I fully expect to get future remarks like: smells of rainbow, tastes like snozzberry.

[Dawg LB Steve]

"fruity pebbles". I'm not making that up, fruity pebbles and baby powder! I think Mash hit it on the nose. I fully expect to get future remarks like: smells of rainbow, tastes like snozzberry.

[BlackDuck]

Fruity pebbles and baby powder.....That is funny. But as for getting the math wrong, twice, that should really be brought to their attention. If a judge can't add, then either give him a calculator or don't let him judge. Adding the numbers up is the one part of competing that is not subjective. And there should be no excuse for screwing that up!!!

[mashani]

Believe it or not - I actually could see comparing a beer with a bunch of El-Dorado to fruity pebbles perhaps. I would certainly agree with the Jolly Rancher description some folks use for them, because I have that same vibe in the beers I've made with them. It seems to play with dark crystal malt nicely but is a bit whacked in a pale belgian beer I made with them.

[RickBeer]

Just goes to show you that some beer judges have more sophistication than us common folk, eating Fruity Pebbles and using Baby Powder after a bath (they don't take showers). I suspect that he may also live in a van down by the river...

van down by the river.jpg (41.5 KiB) Viewed 705 times

[John Sand]

Believe it or not - I actually could see comparing a beer with a bunch of El-Dorado to fruity pebbles perhaps. I would certainly agree with the Jolly Rancher description some folks use for them, because I have that same vibe in the beers I've made with them. It seems to play with dark crystal malt nicely but is a bit whacked in a pale belgian beer I made with them.

I'm not familiar with El Dorado (just the movie!). The "fruity pebbles" brew contained Saaz, Fuggles, Styrian Goldings, not much of any of them. I know that some people (my wife) can quickly taste things that are elusive to others. But I also think that some beer elitists want to claim that they can taste things no one else can.

[John Sand]

By the way, Thank you Mash. I always appreciate your advice, and the rest of the Borg. I never have found a more supportive group online.

[Brewbirds]

John I have entered one beer in one competition and had pretty much the same thing happen.

One guy was a volunteer who'd never judged and had no training and another invented some weird off flavor. It was burnt rubber or something and I remember thinking there is no way that only one person is going to taste that that in this beer (and I certainly would not have entered a beer if I'd noticed anything THAT off).

I had even brought a bottle to the LHBS before knowing about the competition and everyone there said it was great.

One customer even tasted and called it "a solid A" and it turned out that he was a certified judge.

That soured me on entering beers again especially since we only make a case at a time and they want you to submit several bottles not to mention pay an entry fee.

BB2 and I like our beers and most folks we've shared with have as well. That is good enough for me.