carbonate levels in mash?

[zorak1066]

playing around with water profiles and chemistry I find I can often get everything close EXCEPT bicarbonate levels. they always come out lower than the targeted profile. then when you correct mash ph with lactic acid it gets even more out of whack. so, how important is the bicarbonate level in the quality of the finished product? usually the numbers for the bicarb come out way low.

[MadBrewer]

Bicarbonate and Alkalinity are kind of innerconnected. They are representative of the bufferring power of you brewing water. Something like Dublin water is high in Bicarbonate and alkalinity which is why brewing dark beers is a good match with that kind of water...the dark grains nuetralize the effects of the alkalinity and drive the mash ph down to an appropriate range. That is basically the role or inportance of Bicarbonate in your water. It plays into what you are brewing, what you are working with and how it will effect the ph of the mash and other beer characteristics due to your water.

For light beers you want very little Bicarbonate and Alkalinity in your water since they will drive up and fight to keep you mash ph high. Bicarbonate also brings a roughness to beers like light lagers. On the otherhand for Beers like Porters and Stouts with the use of dark grains your water can use a good deal of alkalinity and bicarbonate again to balance the mash ph.

So it depends on what you are brewing. One thing that comes to mind from your question is I dont see the need to use acid and add alkalinity to the same beer...thats like adding Carapils to a grain bill but also adding 2 lbs of Sugar. Bicarbonate is an indicator of alkalinity but to increase those two factors you can do so with chalk and baking soda. To nuetralize or lower alkalinity and bicarbonate you do so with calcium salts or acids to the mash. Does this help?

[MadBrewer]

Which water calculator are you using? I have yet to see one that gives you adjusted factors for Bicarbonate. Alkalinity yes but not Bicarbonate. Any level of a water profile is just a range but if things are way off there could be some errors. Maybe give an example of what you are trying to do what you are doing to get there...what you are trying to brew...etc. I dabble with water a lot I would love to help and answer any questions.

[zorak1066]

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

quick answer. bottom gives you link to water profile / chemical additions by mash ingredients... I adjust the chemicals to match a profile and the ph goes up over 5.7. adjust the acid and the carbonate level drops about a hundred units. i'll post a more detailed post another day.. work is killing me atm.

[MadBrewer]

I have looked over the water calculators from Brewers Friend. Both the basic and new calculator are pretty nice. I do find the new one a bit hard to use. There are a lot of tabs and so many factors and items to enter. Things can get a little confusing.

I use and suggest EZ Calculator. It's a one page simple layout, you enter your personal water profile, you play around with the brewing salt additions and it gives you an adjusted water profile. It also calculates mash ph. I have found it very accurate, I have been using it for a few years now. When it says my mash ph will be 5.3, I know it will be around 5.3 It doesn't have the function of matching water profiles, or telling you what to add to get to that profile, but with a little playing around you can get to any water profile you want. It's just a suggestion, I have showed this to several people and have turned them onto the program. I know it's convienant to use the water calculator in whatever software or brewing calculator you are using, but I find this program to be the most user friendly, uncluttered program out there. And it works.

http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

[MadBrewer]

On a side note, there's really no need to match a profile. There are ideal profiles for many of the beer styles out there, but that is not the only way to to about it. A couple key factors are this with any water adjustments:

1) Clean, reliable water soruce. Are you using your tap water or building water with RO?
2) Chlorine/Chlorimine Removal. Odor/sediment/Iron=Carbon filter.
2) Know what you are working with. Get a water report...is your water low/high in minerals, is it high in carbonates, alkalinity?...And how to address those issues.
3) Getting mash ph in the ideal range of 5.2-5.4 give or take.
4) Nuetralizing Alkalinity in your sparge water so you don't pick up tannins and harsh flavors.
5) Considering what you want to do for the beer with your mineral additions. More Gypsum for hoppy beers, Calcium Chloride for Malty beers. Getting at least 50 ppm of Calcium into the mash.
6) Getting the right pre boil, post boil and finished beer ph.

These things alone are far more important for your beer than matching a water profile. Like you said, when you have time to give an example of the beer you have in mind, the water profile you are looking to match. We can go from there.

[ScrewyBrewer]

@MadBrewer I agree 100% I've found your advice very helpful too.