Lager and lack of carbonation

[teutonic terror]

I did a Schwarz Beer on Aug. 23 and bottled it on Oct 30.

As a lager, I fermented at 48F for 8 weeks, doing a diacetyl rest Sept. 7-9.
The long fermentation period was due to my work schedule and a couple of out of town trips.

It has been sitting in bottles, at around 70F for 8 weeks now and it's still not carbed properly.
I sample it about once a week to see if it has improved.
I get a decent hiss when I pop the cap, but little to no head and very few bubbles.

Should I uncap and add a little more yeast to each bottle, or go ahead with the lagering and take my lumps?
This was a fairly expensive recipe and, while I can drink semi-flat beer rather than waste it, I prefer
to have a decently carbed, fairly tasty dark lager for the remainder of the winter season!

Thanks BORG!


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Black Lager
Brewer: JohnEC
Asst Brewer:
Style: Schwarzbier (Black Beer)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.74 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 27.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 66.0 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 20.6 %
10.0 oz Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.2 %
10.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.2 %
3.5 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.8 %
2.4 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.2 %
0.75 oz Perle [8.50 %] - Boil 75.0 min Hop 7 23.9 IBUs
0.25 oz Hallertau [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 1.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) [ Yeast 9 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs 1.9 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 19.15 qt of water at 160.2 F 148.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.54gal, 4.87gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------
Boil got totally screwed up by the rain!

15 minutes short, but I also screwed up the hops additions
which made it work out right!
I now have too much wort!

In the mini fridge at 48.7F.

Checked gravity 8-31. It was 1.025.
Put back in fridge until Tuesday. Will take out then for diacetyl rest.

Did rest from Thursday-Sunday 9-4 thru 9-7. Back in fridge at 48F for three more weeks!

49 bottles Oct 30. This stuff taste's like shit! I hope carbonation helps it.
Alot of money and time wasted if not! Fingers crossed!

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
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[ScrewyBrewer]

Sorry to hear your facing such a problem with your Lager batch, they take a lot of time and as you said the ingredients aren't cheap either. Having done a fair amount of Lagers myself my first reaction would naturally be to point out an issue with your yeast as the most likely cause. Pitch rates for Lager should be twice what you'd use for an Ale, which means making up a four liter starter using two packages of liquid yeast at best. Of course pitching rates apply and higher alcohol beers will require an even higher pitching rate to ensure good attenuation.

Letting the beer sit on the yeast for more than three weeks still sends shivers up my spine, it's something I would never do and still expect not to get some off flavors. After three weeks the beer should have hit it's final gravity and then been transferred off of the yeast to clean secondaries for any additional lagering. I've gone up to six weeks in secondaries but I have to say the bottled beer was not as carbonated as the beer I force carbonated in my cornie kegs.

[Inkleg]

Did you bottle or batch prime? How much?

[teutonic terror]

Ink, bottle primed less than Mr Beer recommendations.

I find their ratios are too carbonated for my taste. I usually use about 1/2 teaspoon of
sugar per bottle, which I have thought about, might be to little for a lager.
Although, the last lager I did, carbed in about four weeks at the same rates.
That's what's baffling me.

[Inkleg]

Ok, home now with a cold one looking back over your first post. What was the projected FG in BeerSmith? What was your FG, said you did a D rest at 1.025, did it go any lower? What yeast and how much did you pitch? Just wondering if you had a stuck fermentation and there's nothing to convert the priming sugar to Co2.

[teutonic terror]

WLP833 Bock lager yeast.
Projected FG was 1.011, my actual FG was 1.010.
Checked that FG at bottling.

I did check back over my notes for the last lager I did, and I only left it in the LBK's for about 6 weeks.

I'm really leaning to having left it in the fridge for too long and most of the yeast falling out of suspension.

Here is the Beersmith report on that one.


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Giggling Gals Grolsch
Brewer: JohnEC
Asst Brewer:
Style: German Pilsner (Pils)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) Sampled on 3-27!
This one is going to be fantastic!
8-2- Kind of grassy, not overly bitter. Not as pleasant as I would like though.
Might cut back on the Perle next time and use more finishing hops.
Or better yet, do a first wort hop, not a 60 minute boil!

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.50 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.50 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 4.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 93.8 %
6.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.7 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.5 %
0.60 oz Perle [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 20.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.10 %] - Boil Hop 5 4.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Saaz [3.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 3.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Saaz [3.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 1.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg Czech Budejovice Lager (White Labs #WLP8 Yeast 8 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs 2.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 12.66 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (2.30gal, 4.25gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------
Went in the fridge for fermentation Monday March 10.
Gonna let it go 21 days since I cant get the temp below 46F.
D-rest started 3-27 at 63F.
Will let it go until 3-31. Gravity was 1.013
Went back in fridge at 50F 3-31.
Checking gravity on 4-15.
Bottled April 24. Very clear gonna leave for 5 weeks then lager.
Only let set out for three weeks then step lagered.
Dropped to 36F over a five day period.

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
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[ScrewyBrewer]

@teutonic terror from what I can see you've under pitched, there's no mention about the age, storage conditions of the yeast or whether or not a starter was made. A fast check for a 1.049 gravity lager says you'd need to pitch 350 billion cells to get 75% apparent attenuation. The average cell count in packaged liquid yeast is only 100 billion cells, if they're all viable, or roughly 25% of the cells needed for a good fermentation. Others may have different views on this but honestly in my experience a good pitch always results in a good beer.

[teutonic terror]

Found the vial, it has a Dec '14 use by date so it wasn't bad.
Probably a "perfect storm" of under pitching and too long fermenting in the fridge.
This is a good lesson in doing a starter!
I just figured with the success of my first lager this would go as smoothly.
Thanks Screwy!

Now, can I uncap and add a few grains of yeast to each and lager from there, or is that
taking a big chance with bottle bombs?

Thanks!

[Inkleg]

Haven't done that my self, but did see a thread on HBT where someone did. Can't recall exactly, but something like uncapped, added two yeast grains, recapped, rolled/inverted the bottles (to make sure the yeast was in the beer), checked 3 weeks later and beer was carbed. He used Red Star Champagne yeast because it would add no flavor and could stand the alcohol level.

I have added 1 gram of the same yeast to 2 gallons of the sour beer I bottled to make sure it carbed. It worked great.

[Kealia]

Found the vial, it has a Dec '14 use by date so it wasn't bad.

Keep in mind that the date (assuming a White Labs vial) is referencing a 'best by' date but the production date is actually 4 months earlier than that.
Based on a production date of October 14, your yeast had only about 40% viability, or roughly 40B cells when you needed 350B cells.

If you don't use a calculator like MrMalty or YeastCalc you may want to look into it - especially for lagers when it's so easy to under-pitch.

[teutonic terror]

Found the vial, it has a Dec '14 use by date so it wasn't bad.

Keep in mind that the date (assuming a White Labs vial) is referencing a 'best by' date but the production date is actually 4 months earlier than that.
Based on a production date of October 14, your yeast had only about 40% viability, or roughly 40B cells when you needed 350B cells.

If you don't use a calculator like MrMalty or YeastCalc you may want to look into it - especially for lagers when it's so easy to under-pitch.

Thanks! That's information I didn't know!

[Dawg LB Steve]

The advice I have gotten from LHBS on the two lagers I have done, using Saflager S-23 was to make sure I pitch two packets in a 5 gallon batch. Now that I have a stir plate and two starters under my belt, next lager I'm going to have to do the most recent again to see the difference between pitching dry and making a starter.