Evaluation, please, on a rye IPA recipe

[FedoraDave]

In my quest to develop new recipes and try new styles this year, I've decided I'm going to try making a rye IPA. I've used rye malt in a couple of recipes, but it's always been a pretty small percentage of the malt bill, and it's mostly there to give a little depth to the flavor and some more mouthfeel. This time I want a much stronger presence, a higher ABV than what I usually make, and a strong hop presence. Here's what I've got so far, and I'd appreciate thoughts from The Borg.

This is for a 2.5 gallon batch.

3.5 pounds 2-row
2 pounds rye malt
1.5 pounds Vienna
0.5 pounds 20L

0.25 oz. Columbus - 45 minutes
0.25 oz. Chinook - 45 minutes
0.25 oz. Columbus - 20 minutes
0.25 oz. Chinook - 20 minutes
0.25 oz. Columbus - 7 minutes
0.25 oz. Chinook - 7 minutes
0.25 oz. Columbus - Dry hop
0.25 oz. Chinook - Dry hop

Mangrove Jack M10 Workhorse yeast

I was thinking I might do hop bursting instead of the schedule I've outlined above, but first things first. I want to see what the malt bill brings on this before I do anything else with my procedure.

According to BrewToad, this should give me 1.080 OG, 1.020 FG, 7.9% ABV, and 68 IBU. It's pretty aggressive, but I figured if I start big and want to scale back, I can always do that on another batch.

[Beer-lord]

I like to add a bit of flaked rye to some of my versions of a RyePA. I think it gives it a better rye flavor with just a slight tanginess. I've found just using rye malt it ends of a bit blah but if you're not sure, leave it out first then brew again with the flaked rye and see what you think.
Also, I think Chinook and Columbus should work great in a rye as does Amarillo and Citra. Knock yourself out.

[FedoraDave]

I will try the flaked rye on a second attempt, just to see which I prefer. Would you recommend the same amount as the rye malt, or are you talking about it as an adjunct to the rye malt? For instance, cutting the rye malt to 1.25 pounds and using 0.25 pounds of flaked?

I had thought of adding Amarillo, but it was getting to be ridiculously hoppy, and after reading the descriptions of the hops in question, I decided I wanted more woody/piney/minty/resiny stuff, rather than more citrus. Personal choice there, but it's my beer, after all. I can see Amarillo and Citra doing quite well for this style, and some of the rye IPAs I looked up on commercial craft sites also use Simcoe, which I could also see.

[John Sand]

It looks good Dave. I haven't made a Rye beer, but it's in my future. I have the rye malt and flaked rye. I've read some suggestions on HBT to split them. I do like Columbus. Are you at all concerned about balancing the spiciness with sweetness? What mash temp are you thinking of?

[Beer-lord]

I will try the flaked rye on a second attempt, just to see which I prefer. Would you recommend the same amount as the rye malt, or are you talking about it as an adjunct to the rye malt? For instance, cutting the rye malt to 1.25 pounds and using 0.25 pounds of flaked?

I had thought of adding Amarillo, but it was getting to be ridiculously hoppy, and after reading the descriptions of the hops in question, I decided I wanted more woody/piney/minty/resiny stuff, rather than more citrus. Personal choice there, but it's my beer, after all. I can see Amarillo and Citra doing quite well for this style, and some of the rye IPAs I looked up on commercial craft sites also use Simcoe, which I could also see.

When I was researching recipes a few years back, it appeared that many used about 50% flaked rye to rye malt but you can easily do the same amount of both. I would start with no more than 50% of the rye malt to see how you like it first.

[mashani]

I like anywhere 25% to 50% split of flaked to malted rye. Flaked rye kicks it up IMHO too. Malted rye is mellower.

That said, and sort of in answer to the question

Are you at all concerned about balancing the spiciness with sweetness?

From my own perspective now... I made that Roggenbier. It was 60% rye, some dark crystal, and base malt. It's was totally delicious. SWMBO loved it, so it's not just me. It is of course not an IPA, it has hardly any IBUs - it's basically a wheat beer with rye instead of wheat - but I might make very high % rye PA or IPA with some stupid amount of rye - 40% or more - one day because of how good it is. Some piney and citrusy hops would be excellent with the malt flavors I got there.

[FedoraDave]

Right now, the rye is 27% of the grain bill. How that stacks up in sweetness vs. spiciness, I don't know, but I was more concerned with having the hop bill work well with the grain bill. I may split 50/50 on the rye malt/flaked rye, and use a pound of each, but I'll also consult with my LHBS guy and see what kind of food for thought he has.

Even though this is a beer that's going to be hop-heavy and (I hope) rye-heavy, I still want there to be some kind of balance if that's not too oxymoronic a statement. For instance, I didn't want to use hops that were citrusy because, to my taste, they can easily go the cat-piss route if overused. So I went with woody, piney hops because I like the sort of musty aroma and taste they bring, and I wanted an alternative to Centennial for this beer.

I went with some Vienna for a little sweetness and some more color and complexity in the grain bill. But then, the amount of rye outweighs the Vienna, and I did that on purpose.

These are all great responses! Thanks, and keep them coming. I don't intend to brew this until early March, so I've got plenty of time to do more research and revision.

[Sparrow]

Dave,

Sounds like a great start to me. I'm far from experienced with rye IPAs, as my only attempt I went very conservative with the rye at only 13%, no flaked, and the rye presence was underwhelming to say the least.

My next go around I plan to take the advice of the other responders and kick up both the rye ratio and add the flaked as well.

I did use Chinook, with some Magnum, which seemed to work well with what little rye there was.

[ScrewyBrewer]

I've only used flaked rye, as much as a pound, in my five gallon batches. The flaked adds spice, which works well with the bitterness expected in an IPA, without masking hop aroma or flavor. As for the base malt I used either 2-Row, Pale Ale or Marris Otter with great results. Citrusy hops like Citra and Cascades for aroma and flavor with Centennial used early on in the kettle for bittering seems to blend together nicely too.

[John Sand]

I'm brewing a Rye Pale right now.
5# two row
1.5# munich
1# honey malt
1# flaked rye
.5# rye malt
.5# carapils
Calls for .5oz summit @60, .5oz centennial @15 and 5. I replaced the summit with .9 "Centennial Type" which I have on hand. The original recipe also called for 1.5# flaked rye. Also used Notty for US05. A bit low on volume, high on gravity, nothing new.

[Beer-lord]

John, if you've never used honey malt, you might find 1 lb a bit much. Prolly too late now but I'm curious how this comes out because the rest of the recipe looks yummy.
I've used honey malt 3 times and all were 1/2 lb or less. Even in that amount, I found it a bit too noticeable for my tastes.

[John Sand]

I've read that. And I wondered a bit about it. The recipe thread is only three pages (HBT) with only a handful of brewers reporting. But every one of them loved it. I may be out on a limb, but I'm not the first one there!

[Beer-lord]

I'm a firm believer in trying a well liked recipe before making changes so I agree to let it roll.
I just made one from HBT that goes back to 2008. It's not bad in any way, just not nearly as good as all the reports. Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

[FedoraDave]

Yeah, I use 1/2 lb of honey in Amber's Amber Lager, but that's only 1/2 lb out of 11 pounds total, 7 of which is two-row. A full pound with that grain bill might be too cloying. But perhaps the hops will mitigate it.

[FedoraDave]

I've only used flaked rye, as much as a pound, in my five gallon batches. The flaked adds spice, which works well with the bitterness expected in an IPA, without masking hop aroma or flavor. As for the base malt I used either 2-Row, Pale Ale or Marris Otter with great results. Citrusy hops like Citra and Cascades for aroma and flavor with Centennial used early on in the kettle for bittering seems to blend together nicely too.

I'm glad you weighed in, Vince. I was thinking of how much you liked your Screwer in the Rye beer.

I think I will go 50/50 on the flaked rye/rye malt. As far as the hops, the citrusy ones are often used in IPAs, I know, but this is just a case of Brewer's Choice. Sometimes I like it, such as with my PacTiki Pale Ale, which is sort of pineapple/melon tinged. But in this case, I want to be pretty aggressive with the hops, and if it gets catty, I'll be really disappointed, so if I'm risking overdoing it, I'd rather have the woodsy/earthy hops. And I think they'll play nice with the grain bill.

But this is what I love about homebrewing; it's all experimentation and educated guesses, and when we get it right, it's an awesome thing!