2015 RCE - BlackDuck and JJ!!!!

[BlackDuck]

We have traded many an email and have come up with brewing a Cream Ale. We would both like a nice, easy drinking summer beer to have on hand. Some good research and ideas have passed between the two of us. This looks like a fun recipe to try out. There might be a few small differences between our processes, but that's OK. Would love to hear any comments by anyone who has brewed a cream ale before.
Some things that are different than our normal beers are:
1. Low fermentation temperature.
2. The use of both an ale yeast and a lager yeast.
3. A step down fermentation temperature to start immediately after primary has finished.
4. More 6 row than 2 row.

Jim...we just need to come up with a good name for this one. I'm looking forward to creating another excellent beer with you Jim!!!

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe:
Brewer: BlackDuck and jimjohson
Asst Brewer:
Style: Cream Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.84 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.29 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 17.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 57.1 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 26.2 %
1 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 3 9.5 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.8 %
0.38 oz Cluster [8.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 11.8 IBUs
0.25 oz Cluster [8.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 4.3 IBUs
4.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 20 min]( Sugar 7 2.4 %
0.25 oz Cluster [8.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 1.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafLager West European Lager (DCL/Fermen Yeast 9 -
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 10 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 3.20 gal of water at 162.9 F 148.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 5.86 gal water at 170.0 F
Notes:
------
Ferment 63 - 65. After primary, step temp down to reach 38 - 40, then hold for at least a week.

[jimjohson]

yeah I'm just using Nottingham instead of the 05. besides the variations in our brewing styles

I do have 1 question. We're fermenting at ale temps, and that's why we don't need to let the 23 do a d rest right?(just fermenting is going to clean up the "butter")

[mashani]

Sounds good. I think you honestly don't need to use the S-05 in conjunction with the S-23, although it certainly won't hurt anything.

Some authentic cream ales were actually brewed with just a lager yeast at warmer temperatures, others with just an ale yeast at lower temperatures. Not all of them combined strains.

But S-23 has a slight ale like fruitiness when fermented 54-59, it's not as totally "clean" as other lager yeasts would be at lower temperatures. (S-23 gets totally whack at lower temperatures, I would not suggest ever going below 54 with it, it actually gets MORE fruity and not in a good way).

That's why I just stuck with the S-23 in my cream ale like substance which I'm fermenting around 57.

Cluster is probably the most authentic hop to use, but I personally don't like it as much as something like Northern Brewer or Perle or a noble hop. It has some berry aroma instead of the woodsy/minty/spicy/floral you would get from the others. Just depends on what you like. The Cluster is one of those "cat pee" hops in some folks minds. Truly authentic California commons (as brewed in the old days) would likely use Cluster too instead of Northern Brewer, which I have done, but I still like the Northern Brewer better.

At 57-59, you don't need to do a D-Rest with S-23 in my experience as long as you just leave it in there for 2 full weeks. If you are combining an ale yeast with it, then the ale yeast is going to take up the D, so there isn't any issue there anyways.

Notty is in my experience going to ferment out dryer and give you a less malty seeming beer then S-05, so you might want to take that into consideration since your mashing at low temps and not using any crystal.

[jimjohson]

Sounds good. I think you honestly don't need to use the S-05 in conjunction with the S-23, although it certainly won't hurt anything.

Some authentic cream ales were actually brewed with just a lager yeast at warmer temperatures, others with just an ale yeast at lower temperatures. Not all of them combined strains.

But S-23 has a slight ale like fruitiness when fermented 54-59, it's not as totally "clean" as other lager yeasts would be at lower temperatures. (S-23 gets totally whack at lower temperatures, I would not suggest ever going below 54 with it, it actually gets MORE fruity and not in a good way).

That's why I just stuck with the S-23 in my cream ale like substance which I'm fermenting around 57.

Cluster is probably the most authentic hop to use, but I personally don't like it as much as something like Northern Brewer or Perle or a noble hop. It has some berry aroma instead of the woodsy/minty/spicy/floral you would get from the others. Just depends on what you like. The Cluster is one of those "cat pee" hops in some folks minds. Truly authentic California commons (as brewed in the old days) would likely use Cluster too instead of Northern Brewer, which I have done, but I still like the Northern Brewer better.

At 57-59, you don't need to do a D-Rest with S-23 in my experience as long as you just leave it in there for 2 full weeks. If you are combining an ale yeast with it, then the ale yeast is going to take up the D, so there isn't any issue there anyways.

Notty is in my experience going to ferment out dryer and give you a less malty seeming beer then S-05, so you might want to take that into consideration since your mashing at low temps and not using any crystal.

Just using 2 yeasts cause it is not out of style, and something I have not tried before. I considered that about the notty. I was going to use 2 lbs of corn to dry it out but figure to use 1lb like Chris and the notty should be a trade off(I hope). I use cluster in a couple other brews, I like it. Might not work with this style, we'll see

[mashani]

I use cluster in a couple other brews, I like it. Might not work with this style, we'll see.

It will work fine, it is the real old American hop and has been used in plenty of cream ales and common beers in American history. It's more a matter of if you like it or not, since you do you should be happy. I would not worry about dry with your mash temps, the corn adjunct, and lack of any crystal malt. I'd worry more about over bittering the beer which is easy to do in this style, especially if you ferment really dry and use no crystal. But your hop amounts seem very safe.

Be sure to not cool it to your low temps and hold until fermentation is really completely done. That's too cold for S-23 to do anything besides either crash out or potentially make nasty flavors if there is much left to do. And the Notty/S-05 will certainly crash out. Notty will work at 56, but not much lower then that. S-23 is NOT a cold fermenting lager yeast, it gets *ugly* when you get it cold and it's active fermenting. You can find all sorts of horror stories about how folks made what they perceived as awful beer with it and dumped it down the drain - and that's because they fermented it too cold IE in the 40s-50 range like a Bohemian lager strain. It can make really awful/weird fruity flavors if you get it too cold.

Hint about 2 yeasts, which I have done, is you either want to pitch more of the one you want most dominant, or pitch the dominant strain first then a few days in add the second.

If I was doing what your doing I'd actually pitch the S-23 at 57, let it go for a few days, then add the Notty, then a few days after that raise it up into the 60s... Notty works fine at 57 too, it doesn't need 60s to get going.

[jpsherman]

Jim...we just need to come up with a good name for this one. I'm looking forward to creating another excellent beer with you Jim!!!

Well if you have any problems with this one you could give a nod to the hops and call it "Cluster@#$!"

[Dawg LB Steve]

6 Row conversion is harder to achieve, keep that in mind.

[BlackDuck]

6 Row conversion is harder to achieve, keep that in mind.

Yup...I will mash for at least 75 minutes, maybe even go 90 minutes.

[BlackDuck]

Well if you have any problems with this one you could give a nod to the hops and call it "Cluster@#$!"

That's funny....I like that.

[jimjohson]

Well if you have any problems with this one you could give a nod to the hops and call it "Cluster@#$!" [/quote]




I like that better than my suggestion "Three's a Charm"

[mashani]

6 Row conversion is harder to achieve, keep that in mind.

I think this depends on how modified it is, and I think most of the 6 row you can get these days is just as highly modified as the 2-row we get. But a longer mash still won't harm anything. You should not need a step mash with the high modified stuff, but if its not then a step mash would be very beneficial.

But this got me thinking that you might want to be careful extra careful with your mash PH and sparge water temp though, as the stuff has more intact husks, so it would be easier to get tannins into your beer.

[FedoraDave]

I haven't used 6-row in my Tennessee Cream Ale, but then, I don't know how accurate a cream ale it is according the BJCP style guidelines. It's a pretty good beer, though. Cream ales are nice when the weather gets warmer.

[Dawg LB Steve]

If it turns out half s good as your Winter Time Spiced Ale RCE, it will be a hit!

[jimjohson]

Dave, from what I could see researching the style 2 row, 6 row, or combination, there's no "right way". Same with the yeast.

@ mashani I decided not to go with the Nottingham but S-33 instead. Though I plan to stick with the 23, as fruity esters are part of a cream ale. The 23 may give me too much fruit, but I only know 1 way to find out. BD is planning on changing his lager yeast so we'll have a good look at which way is best.

ths below is from: http://www.morebeer.com/articles/brewing_cream_ale

What Makes a Cream Ale?

Although cream ale is descended from American lager, several factors distinguish the two styles. Unlike American premium lagers with their clean, crisp palates and pre-Prohibition lagers with their higher levels of malt and hops, cream ales today are characterized by faint fruity esters in the palate, reserved hopping rates, and kräusening or sugar priming to create an effervescent product.

[jimjohson]

If it turns out half s good as your Winter Time Spiced Ale RCE, it will be a hit!

Thanks...I got a partner that knows how to make good beer!