First Lagers - Oktoberfest and ORIGINAL Killian's - Input?

[RickBeer]

Love some input. I plan on brewing my first lagers, since with 21 cases ready to drink I can let things sit a good while. I want to brew an Oktoberfest and the Original Killian's recipe. Recipes are below, along with some comments, love some input. I'm buying the ingredients on Saturday.

Oktoberfest:

7.2 lbs of LME
1 lb of Munich (steeped)
1 lb of Vienna (steeped)
1/2 lb of Cara-Munich (steeped)
7.5 HBU Northern Brewer for 60
0.5 Hersbrucker for 15
0.5 Hersbrucker for 5

I plan on using S-23 dry lager yeast.

I hope it will be malty enough for me.

Original Killian's:

8 lbs of amber LME
1 lb of crystal 10
8 oz.home-toasted pale malt (toasted for 15 minutes)

My LHBS sells pale, wheat, and munich LME (which says it's 1/2 pale and 1/2 munich). I was thinking of 2 alternatives:

Alternative 1:

8 lbs of Munich LME
1 lb of Crystal 10
1/2 lb of Biscuit (for the toasted)

The owner of my LHBS said that Munich LME is too much flavor for a Killian's clone, but he kept referring to the Killian's current formulation, not the original, which is what I want to make. He suggested Biscuit or Victory for the toasted flavor.

Alternative 2:

7.5 lbs of pale LME
1/2 lb of Crystal 60
3 oz of Chocolate Malt
1/2 lb of Biscuit (for the toasted)

I'd love some input on these two choices. I'm less concerned with perfectly matching the color of something that I've never had, more looking to make a great tasting malty beer.

The hops and yeast are:

1.5 oz of French Strisselspalt hops at 90
¾ oz of Mt. Hood hops at 90
½ oz of Santiam hops for 5
1/3 oz of Santiam hops - dry hopped after 1 week (since I will be splitting this between two LBKs, that's 1/6th of an ounce per LBK, i.e. a few pellets.

S-23 yeast

Thanks in advance for any input.

[mashani]

FWIW... I'm fairly sure that the ORIGIONAL Killian's would have been using Fuggles and Kent Golding hops. Not German/French/American hops. Much as I love streisselspalt and santium and mt. hood. Which I do... I love all those hops... but they aren't really the right hops. Doesn't mean it will taste bad, but it won't necessarily taste like Killian's .

Alternative #2 is probably closest to the right grain bill out of all the ones you tossed out there for that.

If you want to use Munich LME, I'd put some into your Oktoberfest. I don't think your 2# mix of Munich/Vienna is enough maltyness - at least not to my tastes. (and you should mash that not steep it btw). Honestly you can go 70% Vienna and 30% Munich and it won't be too malty for an Oktoberfest IMHO. Even just plain Munich LME (50% pale/50% Munich) can make a good Oktoberfest.

[swenocha]

Though I think what you've outlined will make good beer, I agree with Mashani here...

My red ale has evolved into about 40% Munich, 40% pale, 10% 80L, 10% flaked corn, with EKG for bitter and flavor additions. It started out life as an original Killian's clone recipe on its first go-round that was something around 60% pale, 25% Munich, 10% corn, 5% 40L, with EKG for bitter and flavor additions. I decided to bump the maltiness by ramping the Munich, and I like it better now. I've done it as an ale, so I use WY1968 (London ESB), which is kind of my house yeast these days. I run it at very low temps (60 or so), and get a lager-like quality. I think if I ran it as a lager, I might choose WLP850 or WY2206. I find S-23 to be too fruity/estery (which isn't entirely out of place in this style), and I like a cleaner, maltier lager. YMMV.

As for O-fest, my favorite one I've done recently was 30% Munich, 30% Vienna, 30% pils malt, and 10% 40L, with Tettnang for bitter and Saaz for flavor. I use WLP380 (German Lager), though I've used WLP820 in the past.

[RickBeer]

I appreciate both responses. Went out last night and didn't get back until too late to think out a reply).

Because I've only been brewing extract recipes, I have no basis to compare hops, I haven't made anything two different ways and compared side by side. EKG pops up in one of my reds, and the White House Honey Ale, and my Stout and Moosedrool and we like those (see chart). I noticed when I made this chart just now that only the Moosedrool clone has Flavor hops. Interesting, hadn't picked that up prior.

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Oktoberfest

The Octoberfest is exactly from the recipe at AIH (yes steeping the Munich and Vienna). I had thought of using the Munich LME but the owner there always recommends pale LME and steeped grains (or Wheat LME for wheat beers) because he says that Amber and other LME is not consistent and pale is, even though he sells Briess Munich LME which I would assume would be consistent from batch to batch.

I'm not wed to the recipe, I like malty beers, was thinking that maybe the Octoberfest as written would not be malty enough for me. The two reds I've made from their recipes have both used 7.2 lbs of LME. One then uses a pound of Crystal 120, 1/2 lb of Carapils, and EKG hops and its description is "malt forward with notes of light carmel/toffee and toast, lightly hopped for balance". The other uses 1/2 lb of Crystal 120, 6 oz of Amber, and Northern Brewer and Fuggle hops and its description is "classic American Amber, well balanced and full bodied. Toasty, carmel malts, with floral hop character". Both use S-05. I like both, the first one the hops aren't noticeable and it's very easy drinking. The second is more noticeable, and about as hoppy as we like. Neither is very malty to me. My plan was to brew something more malty, and to use lager yeast (dry though) for the first time, since I can let a lager sit for months given my current 21 case supply.

The description of the Octoberfest is "malt forward, with notes of toasted caramel, light biscuit, and just enough hop character to balance." I switched in QBrew from 7.2 lbs of light LME (which always comes up higher in OG than their recipe and I hit their OG) to 7.2 lbs of Briess LME - Munich and removed the Munich steeping grain, and IBUs went from 26 to 28 with color going from 11 to 12 and OG dropped from 1.062 to 1.057. I was surprised as I thought there would be more of a difference.

So based on both of your feedback, I'm thinking:

8 lbs of Briess Munich LME
1 lb of CaraMunich steeped (increased to get more color and the sweet and toasty)
1 oz Northern Brewer for 60
1/2 oz Hersbrucker for 15.
1/2 oz Hersbrucker for 5.
In comparing dry lager yeasts, it looks like Saflager W-34/70 would be better for the Octoberfest than S-23. I like cleaner beers as well. S-05 is my dominant yeast, used in 5 of the 9 beers I make. I guess I should say "I think I like cleaner beers, since I've only used 4 yeasts in 2 years of homebrewing.

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Original Killian's

The Original Killian's recipe is found on the internet, and supposedly sourced in Charlie Papazian's book at some point. http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?s=f0 ... &p=1049130

That's where the specific hops came from. I do see the point though - how could an old Irish beer use modern American hops... Although it does say "early 80s". Don't know. Have no idea when I started drinking Killian's (no earlier than early 80s), but it seems like I would have only drank the Coor's version since it stopped being made many years prior, and likely before these American hops were around or well known.

Summary

Of course I have no idea what the original Killian's tasted like. Today's Killian's is ok, used to be my favorite beer before I found craft beer and then homebrewing. But I prefer my two reds today to a Killian's. Both of you mention EKG for Killian's - which is funny because the first red I make uses exactly that. Must be why I like it so much. Interesting Swenocha that you added the Munich, makes it closer to Octoberfest.

I'm thinking that based on my tastes, and really just looking for a maltier red than the two I have, perhaps the Octoberfest is adventurous enough for now, as a lager (also adventurous for me), and see what I end up with. If I like the Briess Munich LME, then I can consider using it in future reds.

So any input on the current version of the Oktoberfest? I'm thinking that it would be worth making two 2.5 gallon batches, using the same lager yeast, same grains, but different hops combinations to get two versions of it to compare as I've never done that. I would do them at the same time, perhaps changing the Hersbrucker to something else and leaving the Northern in there? Or switching to Tettnang and Saaz? Yes, more work, but not that much more work since I would do them on the same day, and likely side by side with one delayed from the other. I wouldn't have to spend time dividing up my wort, so that would save time (instead of 2.5 gallons of water plus wort and then hops in my pot, I'd do 1.25 gallons of water plus wort and then hops, so I can just pour it into the LBK).

I appreciate the feedback - I lack the experimenting results based on brewing extract recipes. While I want to experiment some, ending up with 5 gallons of beer I don't like isn't high on my list. Feel free to tell me where I'm off (regarding beer, I don't need to know more than that... )

[mashani]

FWIW: Considering that the true original Killian's dates to the 1860s (although an ale and called something like "ruby ale" I think), and that the Killian name was purchased by Coors in the 1950s, so even the "original" American Killians would have been brewed in the 1950s/1060s... and Santium Hops were not available until 1988... then I would say that any recipe that claims to be the original recipe that includes Santium hops is well... not original.

RE: Briess Munich - I buy my Munich extract from MoreBeer.com, but I believe it is just Briess - except packaged fresh almost as fast as it comes off their production line. It has always been very consistent for me. It makes very good beer on it's own, a little steeping grains and it will make excellent beer.

RE: Steeping Munich/Vienna. You can get away with "steeping" a small amount for 30 minutes it and get partial conversion and flavor as long as you stay 160 or below, but there is no reason at that point not to just mash it for a full hour and get everything out of it.

RE: Munich in red ales - I like Munich in anything. So why not. But I doubt there was any Munich in the original Killian's recipe. Munich in this case would be to simulate a more complex mash technique (decoction for example) that brings out the malty/sweetness of the pale malt. Which is why I will toss some Munich into some kinds of Belgians, even though Munich doesn't belong in them technically. But a little bit of Munich can kick up a dubbel and make it seem more like I did an actual decoction.

RE: The Oktoberfest - maybe Caravienna instead of Caramunich. That will give you more "toasty" I think if that's what you want to add. But I think with that much Munich LME, you will have plenty of malty-sweet to begin with, so you may want to instead use a small amount (all you need is maybe 6oz per 2.5 gallons) of Biscuit or Victory malt to get you the toasty flavors you want, without adding the caramel sweetness as the Caramalts would add. It would be good either way I'm sure, it just depends on if you want that extra sweetness. It is a different kind of sweetness then the malty sweet from the Munich LME, so it will add some different character. It just depends on your tastes. I'd probably be happy to drink it either way, but some folks would probably prefer it without the extra crystal sweet.

I think the hersbrucker is great in a Festbier, but tett/saaz would be good too. Northern is fine as bittering addition, but you can also bitter with a noble hop if you want, you just have to use a lot more, so its spendier. FWIW, Santium would also be really good in an Oktoberfest, and you can bitter with it as well, as it's higher AA then the noble hops. So if you have some and decide not to use it in your red, this is a place you can use it.

[RickBeer]

Appreciate the response. Yesterday was graduation so just got back to the forum now.

Here's what I've ended up with. I'm going to do a split batch (2.5 gallons each) with 8 pounds of Briess Munich LME and a pound of Victory (steeped). I'll make it in two 4 lb / 1/2 lb batches. I'll steep the Victory, then split the liquid evenly between two pots, then add 4 pounds of LME to each. Bring them to a boil, then do different hop additions to each.

In one I'm going to use 1/2 oz of Northern at 60, 1/4 oz of Hersbrucker at 15, and 1/4 oz of Hersbrucker at 5. In the other, I'm going to do 1/2 oz of Tettnang at 60, 1/4 oz of Saaz at 15 and 1/4 oz of Saaz at 5. Both will get W-34/70 yeast, the packet split between the two. They'll be fermented together at the proper temps.

What I'll gain from this is the experience of doing a lager, my first Oktoberfest, and be able to compare the difference between the two hops.

I'll be buying this around noon today, so if I'm going astray let me know.

Thanks Swenocha and Mashani!

[mashani]

You might want to check Mr. Malty yeast pitch rate calculator to be sure, but if possible, I'd likely pitch a WHOLE pack of 34/70 into each. Lager pitch rates at cooler temperatures need to be higher then ales. If your fermenting warmer like 57-59 then probably you can use ale pitch rates, but cooler it will slow down things and more yeast is better. I don't thing splitting it will harm the beer ultimately but for the most consistent results, the higher pitch rate is better.

[RickBeer]

Never would have thought it needed more than 1 packet - you're right, they recommend 2 packets for lagers. That's a lot more expensive than brewing an ale...

Have to see if Farmhouse can add a packet to my unfulfilled order.

[RickBeer]

Brewing as we speak, with my son (he's learning the process). Split into two 2.5 gallon batches, two pots going at once. 4 lbs of Munich LME, 1/2 pound of steeped Victory. Batch A gets 1/2 oz of NB (9.9%) at 60, then 1/4 oz of Hersbrucker (2%) at 15 and 5. Batch B gets 1 oz of Tettang (2.4%) at 60 because it has a much lower AA then was expected, the 1/4 oz of Saaz (3.6%) at 15 and 5. 33 IBU for batch A, 19 for batch B. Plan on cooling to 85, which when added to the refrigerated water should get me to 58. Plan on fermenting at 56.3, right in the recommended midpoint.

I am using the S-34/70 yeast, was considering rehydrating at 67 (they recommend 73 +/- 6), then pouring it in to 58 degree wort. They say if you just add to your wort you need to pitch above 68, and I am concerned on dropping the wort temp to mid 50s and creating diacetyl. Probably going with the rehydration.

Edit - did, around 69/70 degrees, will pour that into the wort which I expect to end up at 58. Nailed my OG of 1.062 for both, and temp was right around 58/59 when I pitched the yeast. In the fermentation freezer, it says right around 61, headed down to 56.3, right in the midpoint.

Also since my scale measures grams, but not partial grams, nor does it seem very sensitive at low levels, I plan on getting a scale that does tenth of a gram for measuring out hops in the future.

Next up is figuring out when to do my d-rest, and then whether to let them sit for 4 weeks in the LBKs, or transfer to 2 other LBKs and keep them at 37 or so for 4 weeks, or to bottle, leave them at 70 for 4 weeks, then lager in the bottle for 4 - 12 weeks.

In retrospect, I should have done two identical batches, one with lager yeast and one with ale yeast to see what the real difference is to me.

[RickBeer]

Update:

Brewed these on May 18th, bottled on June 14th. On July 15th I put 6 of each in the fridge, with the intent of cold conditioning them until mid-September. Due to my son unexpectedly coming home for a long weekend from Florida, we broke these open yesterday.

Both received rave reviews. The Northern and Hersbrucker was much strong in hops flavor than the Tettang and Saaz, as expected. Because there were 4 of us, and only 6 of each beers cold, I got 2 of the milder version but only one of the stronger version.

Plan is to put as many as I can fit in the fridge now. Plan on taking out 1 in a few days to see if 39 days in the fridge really matters.

Ideally, I will brew a version of the Tettang / Saaz with an ale yeast in the next month or two so that we can compare side by side, to see what a lager yeast did for these. Looks like instead of S-34/70 I would use either Notty or S-05. Or, I'll just plan on brewing it again next year and take over the fermentation fridge for one batch only.

Thanks again to Swenocha and Mashani for their suggestions!