I won't be making any more organic brews

[Kealia]

My closest LHBS is only 3 miles away and it happens to be all organic - which is kinda cool, but was never a requirement for me. I also have MoreBeer that is basically on my commute route home so I consider them local as well since I can swing in there.

Today I was in the organic place and picked up grains and yeast to do 2.5G batch. The initial total was $40 which I called out as being wrong and it turns out they entered my Munich as 6.6lbs and not 6.6oz. Ok. The adjusted total was $27 which still seemed a bit high, but I knew I had to buy yeast this time as well as all the hops I needed. I looked over at the screen and he was adjusting some other field - a crush fee. WHAT?!?!?! When my grain was ~11lbs the charge was $11 and now that it was just over 5lbs he was adjusting it down to $5. I've never paid a crush fee before, although 90% of the time I crush my own at MoreBeer. I let it go, chalking it up to not wanting to deal with it since I was brewing on a last-minute basis already. I'm chalking this up to "that's what I get for not planning ahead".

Then as I'm mashing my grains I started measuring out my hops and the 1oz package of Cascades only has .95oz in it. Grrr....

I'm going to give them a call and discuss this because I've been going there for a while without issues, but these are adding up now. I'll give them the courtesy of a discussion and a phone call before I stop using them, but we'll see how it goes.

After thinking about it a while now, I also realize that the overall level of service there has dropped since one of the main guys left to start his own (very successful so far) brewery near by. It was always there in the back of my head but I never REALLY realized it until now. Sad.

So, there's a good chance that I may not be making any more organic beers, which I said before was never my goal, but more importantly they may have just lost my business.

[TimeTraveler]

Most beers are organic including LMEs - they don't need preservatives and other nonorganic additives!

[FedoraDave]

TimeTraveler, organic doesn't just mean no preservatives or additives; it takes in the entire growing process, including fertilizers and pesticides.

Ron, that's a shame that they let their service and quality go to the rats like that. And ever since one of the guys left to start his own brewery. Guess it's obvious who was maintaining the integrity of that shop, huh?

[Kealia]

That's what I think Dave. He was/is a very personable guy and he and I chatted a lot, although he just gave off that good vibe of "I want to help you and want you here". The current guys in there are somewhat indifferent, not as outgoing, etc. I can deal with different personalities and not everybody is going to come up to the level of one exceptional guy, but when you get the impression that they don't really care about whether you are in there or not that's where I draw the line.

Now that I've typed that, I guess I've made my decision. Today's issues aside, I think I'm done with them unless it's an 'emergency' and I need something that can't wait. I was going there mainly because they were local and I like to support the smaller local shops when possible. I paid a little more but didn't mind. Now with the crushed grain charge compounding things, I'll just make sure to go to MoreBeer more.

And I'll still visit Tim at his brewery. He's doing cool things. Mashani would love the place.

Sante Adarius Rustic Ales

[jimjohson]

i thought it interesting that you were shorted hops. today as i measured out the hops needed for the bitter boil(35g) i found both of the 1 oz packs of cluster packaged by crosby&baker ltd. had only 26g . silly me, here i was thinking it was 28.3.

[TimeTraveler]

TimeTraveler, organic doesn't just mean no preservatives or additives; it takes in the entire growing process, including fertilizers and pesticides.
Dave,

That is true, but only to a degree. Was the grain packages stamped with a certified USDA Organic seal? If not, the claim that the materials were organic is not necessarily valid. Also, the general belief that no pesticides or fertilizers were used is not necessarily true even with the seal. Certain substances are allowed (e.g. soap-based insecticides are still permitted through 2017 when the list of permitted and prohibited substances are reviewed). A list of supposed "sunset dates" for various substances (you have to scroll through it to see all the substances) is at:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile ... RDC5096045

You might find some of the things on the list surprising. To me the only thing "Organic" labels do is allow folks to charge more money for their crops. It is a label that is as meaningless as genetically modified crops.

All domesticated plants and animals are genetically modified by definition. They do not occur naturally in nature. The only difference between the ones we are considering normal vs. GMs is they were modified by people who did not know anything about genes in the past. For example - there is no wild "corn" or "maize." It was domesticated from a wild plant, teosinte that had some mutations that prehistoric people selected for, and possibly some crosses with other species of plants. Maize has no means of natural seed dispersal without human intervention. It needs humans to remove kernals from the cob (either by hand or mechanically) and then sewing or planting them.

[Kealia]

For clarity - yes, place is 100% truly organic in the fullest extent of the meaing.
After all, it IS Santa Cruz.

(For those not familiar with the area, think Berkeley. And if none of the CA references make sense, think ultra hippy)

[pspearing]

If you're a chemist "organic" means carbon compounds, and the original definition of "organic" that I learned in about 5th grade was "made from living things". I understand that language is dynamic, but I think "organic" is a good example of a word that's misused because it sounds cool.

Pay no attention--I'm 3 of the 7 dwarfs right now (Sleepy, Grumpy, and Dopey).

[Rebel_B]

That's what I think Dave. He was/is a very personable guy and he and I chatted a lot, although he just gave off that good vibe of "I want to help you and want you here". The current guys in there are somewhat indifferent, not as outgoing, etc. I can deal with different personalities and not everybody is going to come up to the level of one exceptional guy, but when you get the impression that they don't really care about whether you are in there or not that's where I draw the line.

Now that I've typed that, I guess I've made my decision. Today's issues aside, I think I'm done with them unless it's an 'emergency' and I need something that can't wait. I was going there mainly because they were local and I like to support the smaller local shops when possible. I paid a little more but didn't mind. Now with the crushed grain charge compounding things, I'll just make sure to go to MoreBeer more.

And I'll still visit Tim at his brewery. He's doing cool things. Mashani would love the place.

Sante Adarius Rustic Ales

That sucks! It seems like you do care, so since you do, I would recommend giving your LHBS an opportunity to redeem themselves by bringing your concerns to the management there. I like the idea of using organic ingrediants as well, and I am lucky enough to have a choice of a supplier who offers both organic malts and regular malts (although, it is not the one within walking distance of my home).
You might be surprised. Being fair is a chord that we can all respond to, and you could be instrumental in correcting some things gone adrift there. The 'crush fee' is total bull***t in the local market I live in. You should call them out on that one!

[mashani]

RE: The old LHBS... I'm sorry for your loss. My closest LHBS is kind of like that. The only reason I go there is its a mile from my house and they have stuff I need in a pinch. I don't go there if I want to talk about things or get grains milled, just to pick up a 1# bag of whatever I need at the moment that I can crush myself... I stop at a LHBS near my moms house when I visit to get more then that done.

RE: MoreBeer - If I could stop there on the way home, I'd be in trouble.

RE: Sante Adarius Rustic Ales - If I could stop there on my way home, I'd be in very serious trouble. I'm not sure I'd ever leave. I'd follow Bernice into the Maiden Fields, and get distracted by SARA Brett, and then Chavez and Anais would show up and beat me up for chasing their girls. What a way to go.

[RickBeer]

Ah, California. It's own little world...

[Kealia]

As usual, cooler heads prevailed. I went back today during my lunch hour to pick up some 'emergency' Nelson Sauvin hops to try and salvage my Summer Ale and spoke to them.

1) They apologized for the issue on the hop weighing issue and said they typically over-package if the amount is close. I'll admit that in the 3 years I've been going there this hasn't been an issue so I can forgive human error.

2) He said their policy has always been to charge for grain crushes @ $0.15/lb. So, my 5lb grain bill last week should have been $0.75. I can deal with that for the convenience of having them close by - that's nothing. He told me that if I brought in the receipt he would refund it, but I don't keep those things. Heck, I barely ever even ask for one. I would have felt better from a Customer Service standpoint if he just offer the $4.00 back, or even comped one of the packs of hops I was buying as a make-good but I also understand the request for the receipt. They are a small business and need to watch $$ carefully. Still, for $4,00 to make it up to somebody I wouldn't have even thought twice about doing it if I were in his shoes.

He was pleasant enough to deal with. Not over the top outgoing like Tim was, but far from rude, too.

I think I can summarize these last two weeks as:
1) Work has been crazy
2) I've not been feeling great since Thursday
3) Two of my last batches haven't turned out the way I wanted
4) Generally poor mood

I think those combined with the issues I had on Saturday with them pushed me over the edge. Now that I look at it a bit more objectively, I need to recant my earlier statement about not using them anymore unless I HAD to.

Clearly, I need to RDWHAHB.

[Brewbirds]

Obviously as a beer forum we will talk about our LHBS but I am having the same problem in my small grocery store as well which may point out some things.

We live in a very small community outside of Austin and had to always "go to town" for groceries but our little chamber of commerce kept pushing until they got a small chain, family owned store to bring us a store. While I have to say they are doing a great job of providing essentials and they are doing pretty good on pricing they are not weathering the financial crisis fallout very well.

They are clearly struggling to keep the prices as low as they can to compete with the stores in town (Walmart and big grocery chains) the quality is fickle, brands keep changing and the employees have clearly had wages, hours or benefits slashed because you can see the despondent attitude and turn over.

It is unfortunate but all to common to discover that a small company makes its employees suffer before it shows there is a problem to its customers through price increases.

When other costs rise, for us it would be shipping as a result of gas prices, they have to see where they can shave elsewhere so they don't raise prices dramatically to customers.

So the point is that it may not be just one local LHBS you are used to but that it is happening everywhere and you are seeing the economic conditions we are in trickle down to you and the guy you are dealing with at that moment.

The BIG stores have a huge staff that are trained to make sure you don't notice the same thing in their giant box stores but you see that the news reveals it is there as well.

[Kealia]

Good theory, but I didn't mention that this is a co-op so they are all part owners and should have a stake in customer service.

I think it was a combination of a simple error, or two, plus my bad attitude lately and a guy there that just isn't a people person - not everybody is.

[Rebel_B]

Thanks for the update! They make mistakes at my LHBS also, usually more commonly when it is not busy. When it is super busy, everyone 'steps up' and gets better at their job. Course, when it's slow, I'll go in the back and sample some new ales recently brewed up there, so that's pretty cool too.