Silly Question

[RandyG]

Hey Gang, I was just reading an old article in BYO from 2011.It was about making Lite Beers.The author suggested,adding water or ice cubes to a regular full strength beer,diluting the ABV.and making it a Lite beer.Makes sense kinda.So my question is,if I brew a 3 gallon full strength 6-7% abv beer and before bottling rack it to a 5 gallon fermenter for bottling.Then add 2 gallons of bottled spring to reduce the ABV. Would that kinda like drop the abv to 3.5-4ish? My train of thought is that if the base brew was hoppy enough and the brew held up on it's own,that by diluting it would give me a Lite beer. And I know,before you all,steer me clear of these notions,please give me your 2 centavos.TIA

[Jon]

So brewing a beer for dillution is tricky, because you're going to lose abv, flavor, mouthfeel and body when you dilute it.

3 gallons of 6% ABV beer + 2 gallons water should give you 5 gallons of 3.6% beer. If the beer starts at 7%, you'll end up with 4.2%.

If you don't want to end up with something that's weirdly thin, I'd design the base brew to have a lot of body, since your FG is going to plummet when you add 40% of the final volume as water. If you're going AG, I'd use some flaked oats or malted rye (maybe even both) in there to give more mouthfeel, and mash really high (158-160*). If you're going with extract, I'd probably add some maltodextrin, just for the boost (though I suppose with extract, it's not that different than topping up before fermenting, so maybe it's not as big of a deal).

Just remember that 40% of the final volume is going to be water--so definitely amp up the flavors of EVERYTHING. Use more than enough specialty grains for a 5 gallon batch, use more than enough hops for a 5 gallon batch...it'll seem like way too much in a 3 gallon batch, but it should provide enough flavor to make it through the dilution of the end product.

And most importantly, report back on how it turns out!

[RickBeer]

I think you're over thinking it. I brew 5 gallon extract batches, which start with 2.5 gallons of water in the pot for the steep, add LME and hops, and then I pour it into a fermenter with cold water in it, 2 gallons to start. Then I top off to 5 gallons, aerate, and pitch my yeast. If I wanted a 3.x% brew, I would simply design that in QBrew.

I have taken two 6% ABV recipes and brought them down to the mid 4s by prorating the ingredients, SWMBO likes mid 4s for her beers.

Note - I actually split my wort into two Mr. Beer fermenters with a gallon in each, then top each to 2.5 gallons.

[BigPapaG]

I also believe that it's best to design for the strength you are looking for.

This way, in addition to hitting the ABV, you can be sure of the desired body, mouthfeel, bitterness etc.

Less guessing...

[MrBandGuy]

What BigPapa said is the best bet. A few of us brew session beers around here. I've done several sub 4% myself. You can get good flavor by starting from the design side. Check out English milds, bitters, or Scotch 60 recipes to give you an idea.

That said, I was listening to an episode of Brew Strong and they were singing the praises of diluting an RIS. They'd pour a half pint or so and dilute with tap water. It brought out hidden flavors that were covered up with the bigger beer. But, as they said above, a big beer diluted works better.

[The_Professor]

I am yet to try this myself, but HBT has an interesting thread about making an all grain "Miller Lite Clone".
There is a trick. Amylase enzyme is added in secondary to ferment the beer further. I'm not sure how this would translate to extract pilsner with rice syrup solids.

[mashani]

Amylase enzyme in the secondary (or anytime post chilling) is going to ferment your beer down to 1.0 or even 0.99something. It simply won't stop until it can't find anything to convert to sugar, and the yeast will keep eating the sugar. Why would you want that? Is Millar Lite actually 1.00? (I've never had the desire to go try to test it with my hydrometer LOL).

Anyways, re: this thread - I agree that designing your recipe around the result/strength, but you can still do that and then apply dilution techniques. The only thing you need to do post recipe design is to then "fudge" the gravity (add a bunch of extract temporarily to the recipe) so the gravity will approach what your diluted boil will be (but keeping the recipe as if it was full volume in every other respect). And then you will notice that your IBUs will often drop down some points. Now adjust the bittering addition to bring the IBUs back up to where you want. Now take that extract back out. Your IBUs will shoot up and look too high, but your diluted boil will not extract as many as it will have the gravity you temporarily entered, and the bittering should then end up where you want it.

If that didn't make sense I can try to explain in other words, but that's what I do when I do diluted volume boils with a top up (5 gallon batches) and it works well for me.

[The_Professor]

Amylase enzyme in the secondary (or anytime post chilling) is going to ferment your beer down to 1.0 or even 0.99something. It simply won't stop until it can't find anything to convert to sugar, and the yeast will keep eating the sugar. Why would you want that? Is Millar Lite actually 1.00? (I've never had the desire to go try to test it with my hydrometer LOL)......

So it would do essentially the same thing with an extract batch as all grain? I've always found that thread interesting as I find many different styles interesting. Most of the responses of other people brewing it is favorable. Of course they are aiming for a beer as the thread topic suggests. A beer with a "lite" malt profile hopped as you liked. Not bad if that is what you are looking for. It's something I'd like to try, but not on the top of my list.

[mashani]

Amylase enzyme in the secondary (or anytime post chilling) is going to ferment your beer down to 1.0 or even 0.99something. It simply won't stop until it can't find anything to convert to sugar, and the yeast will keep eating the sugar. Why would you want that? Is Millar Lite actually 1.00? (I've never had the desire to go try to test it with my hydrometer LOL)......

So it would do essentially the same thing with an extract batch as all grain? I've always found that thread interesting as I find many different styles interesting. Most of the responses of other people brewing it is favorable. Of course they are aiming for a beer as the thread topic suggests. A beer with a "lite" malt profile hopped as you liked. Not bad if that is what you are looking for. It's something I'd like to try, but not on the top of my list.

I would think it would do pretty serious drying out with some types of more fermentable and very fresh extract, IE fresh pils extract. Old stuff with big maliard reaction manipulated sugar chains, maybe it would stop at some point if it couldn't figure out how to chunk it up - but it quite possibly could still do it - regardless I'm sure it would still take some kind of big dent out of it. It's not going to denature, so it will do whatever it can to chunk up those sugar chains, and even if it takes days for it to do it - it has them. Amylase is slow, but still active even at really low temps (if it wasn't and we ate starch we would be in a world of suck, Amylase helps you digest food, it's in your saliva and if you chew on raw starchy food for a bit you will notice that it starts to taste sweeter - you have your own personal starch conversion going on! That's also partially why some of those indigenous beer like substances start with people chewing up stuff and spitting it out). The temps we target for a low temperature mash are where it's most effective (as in it does its work speedily), but it's actually active at every step, even the lowest steps in a step mash, and it's still active (but slower) at quite low temperatures and is going to do nothing but make really simple sugar chains that the yeast will easily eat.

[RandyG]

hey Gang, been reading all of your replies(some are pretty Sciencey (for an old guy),but thanks anyways.I've decided to step back from the 5 gal. brink and ramp back the batch size to 2.5 gal.I used Brewer's Friend calculator,and here is what I came up with.
1 Gallon batch: 2# Light DME
.5# Cryst L10,.5# Carapils steep @ 155-60 for 30 min.
add .5oz. Cascade hops at 30 min. add .5 oz Cascade hops at 5 min.
use Saf-05 yeast.
This will give me 10.20% ABV and 42.62 IBU's
Then I will add 1.5 gallon cold water to a Brew Demon fermenter
According to the calculator, I should end up with 4.08% ABV and 17.05 IBU's
That's definitely right in my BallPark. I know that every on-line calculator will probably give me somewhat different numbers,but going on the info I have,I'm gonna try it.After all if it turns out a failure,it's only one case to UNDILUTE instead of 2 1/2..LOL. What do you guyz think? TIA

[Dawg LB Steve]

First off there are no silly questions about brewing, and you don't learn by sitting on the sidelines! This is what is great about this hobby, if you find something that works by trial and error and still make something you can drink in the meantime, more power to you!!! BREW ON!

[bpgreen]

Amylase enzyme in the secondary (or anytime post chilling) is going to ferment your beer down to 1.0 or even 0.99something. It simply won't stop until it can't find anything to convert to sugar, and the yeast will keep eating the sugar. Why would you want that? Is Millar Lite actually 1.00? (I've never had the desire to go try to test it with my hydrometer LOL)......

So it would do essentially the same thing with an extract batch as all grain? I've always found that thread interesting as I find many different styles interesting. Most of the responses of other people brewing it is favorable. Of course they are aiming for a beer as the thread topic suggests. A beer with a "lite" malt profile hopped as you liked. Not bad if that is what you are looking for. It's something I'd like to try, but not on the top of my list.

I would think it would do pretty serious drying out with some types of more fermentable and very fresh extract, IE fresh pils extract. Old stuff with big maliard reaction manipulated sugar chains, maybe it would stop at some point if it couldn't figure out how to chunk it up - but it quite possibly could still do it - regardless I'm sure it would still take some kind of big dent out of it. It's not going to denature, so it will do whatever it can to chunk up those sugar chains, and even if it takes days for it to do it - it has them. Amylase is slow, but still active even at really low temps (if it wasn't and we ate starch we would be in a world of suck, Amylase helps you digest food, it's in your saliva and if you chew on raw starchy food for a bit you will notice that it starts to taste sweeter - you have your own personal starch conversion going on! That's also partially why some of those indigenous beer like substances start with people chewing up stuff and spitting it out). The temps we target for a low temperature mash are where it's most effective (as in it does its work speedily), but it's actually active at every step, even the lowest steps in a step mash, and it's still active (but slower) at quite low temperatures and is going to do nothing but make really simple sugar chains that the yeast will easily eat.

If you use amylase, I highly advise heating the beer to a temperature high enough to stop it before bottling (note that this will also kill the yeast, so if you're naturally carbonating, you'll need to add more once it cools). As mashani points out, it continues to act, but slowly, until all available starches are converted. Since it acts slowly, you may think it's done, but it continues to convert and provide food for the yeast, so you'll have gushers at the least and potentially bottle bombs. I tried beano in one batch and had beer dripping from the ceiling when I opened the first bottle.

[RickBeer]

Again, I think this is being overthought.

Brew as you intend - setting the software for a 2.5 gallon batch with the ingredients you have. QBrew shows 25IBUs (with Cascade at 7.1% AA), and 4.1% ABV.

Pour a gallon of cold water in the BrewDemon. Add your wort. Top off to 2.5 gallons, pitch your yeast.

There is no reason to try and figure out what the 1 gallon of wort comes out to. Just do a 2.5 gallon batch in the software. It doesn't care when you add the water.

[bpgreen]

Again, I think this is being overthought.

Brew as you intend - setting the software for a 2.5 gallon batch with the ingredients you have. QBrew shows 25IBUs (with Cascade at 7.1% AA), and 4.1% ABV.

Pour a gallon of cold water in the BrewDemon. Add your wort. Top off to 2.5 gallons, pitch your yeast.

There is no reason to try and figure out what the 1 gallon of wort comes out to. Just do a 2.5 gallon batch in the software. It doesn't care when you add the water.

QBrew cares when you add the water. Or, maybe more correctly, it doesn't, so it miscalculates IBUs when you don't do a full volume boil with all of the malt for the full boil time.

If you want a better approximation of your IBUs, you need to use software that allows you to set your boil size and that lets you specify late extract addition if you do that. That's a big reason I started using Beersmith.

If you use an HME that has 20 IBUs, then add some lme, qbrew will tell you that the IBUs have dropped, but they haven't. In Beersmith, you could set the lme as a late extract addition and the IBUs won't change. The bu:gu ratio will drop, which means that the perceived bitterness is lower, but the IBUs do not change.

In this case, you're not doing a late extract addition, but you're also not doing a full volume boil. The gravity of the wort used for the boil affects the efficiency of the hop oil extraction.

[RandyG]

Well,I cast my fate to the wind,and went out and got the goodies to brew my Lite beer. Brewed it earlier today. It was a quick 30 min steep and 30 min. boil. Topped off BrewDemon to 2.5.
2# x-tra Lt DME
1/2 # Crys 10L
1/2 # Carapils
1/2 oz Amarillo hops @ 30 min.
1/2 oz Amarillo hops @ 5 min. The Gonkulator(Ref. Hogan's Heroes) rolled out these numbers: 3.9% ABV, 21-25 IBU's. Bazinga,right on the money.
Again,thanks for all of your responses. I sould have results in 49 days. I'll letcha all know the results,Good or Bad.