Water gods, please opine.

[Beer-lord]

Had way too many Bruery Beers with a friend who works part time at Abita who tasted my lasted metallic beer. He really didn't get as much metallic as I did but said Abita pitched a batch recently that had a similar taste and they thought it was Chlorophenol which is basically either chlorine tap water (I use RO) or sanitzer not rinsed well enough. I can't see the PBW not being rinsed enough. I'm OCD with rinsing and StarSan is 'foam fearless' so I'm not sure I fall for this.
This weekend's brew will use Iodopher to sanitize the fermenter and I'll wash the crap out the kettle and fermenter. I just don't get this.
He also mentioned something they discussed about dry hopping though he wasn't sure. I've done nothing different in 7 years so if this beer has the same off flavor I guess I'll have to send everything to the scrapyard and start over!

[ScrewyBrewer]

Had way too many Bruery Beers with a friend who works part time at Abita who tasted my lasted metallic beer. He really didn't get as much metallic as I did but said Abita pitched a batch recently that had a similar taste and they thought it was Chlorophenol which is basically either chlorine tap water (I use RO) or sanitzer not rinsed well enough. I can't see the PBW not being rinsed enough. I'm OCD with rinsing and StarSan is 'foam fearless' so I'm not sure I fall for this.
This weekend's brew will use Iodopher to sanitize the fermenter and I'll wash the crap out the kettle and fermenter. I just don't get this.
He also mentioned something they discussed about dry hopping though he wasn't sure. I've done nothing different in 7 years so if this beer has the same off flavor I guess I'll have to send everything to the scrapyard and start over!

Are you sure it's your brewing process and not your keg lines and taps? I only mention this because from the sounds of it nothing in your 7 year brewing process has changed. Over time, and without a thorough cleaning schedule in place, the lines and tap could be the cause.

This is an interesting and very detailed read of the subject BJCP Metallic Flavors. I hope it helps.

[Beer-lord]

Thanks Vince, I'll give that a read. I tasted the last one before I even kegged the beer. I clean my tap lines each time a keg kicks with line cleaner. I 'think' I do everything right but I'm rethinking all of my processes.

[Beer-lord]

Just spent an hour sanitizing everything for tomorrow's brew day in Iodophor. Before that, I gave it a thorough wash and rinse in clear water to make sure any and all signs of PBW were gone though I've never had to do this much rinsing before. I'm cleaning anything that will come in contact with the beer, before, during and after brewing. I really don't think it's a sanitation issue.

So, if using RO water, would it hurt to use a 1/2 a campden tablet? I've never used one since going to RO but have no idea if that would cause any problems??????

[mashani]

Are you ROing your own water? Does your RO for sure remove chloramines? (believe it or not some less expensive RO's do not, your RO has to have a carbon filter occur before the rest of the RO process for this to happen).

I don't see how PBW will give you Chlorophenol, because PBW doesn't contain chlorine as far as I know, isn't it just a strong oxygen based cleaner?

As far as campden, as long as you don't mind introducing a slight amount of sodium or potassium and some sulfate into your water, then nothing wrong with it.

I think if you treat 8 gallons of water with 1 tablet, it is about 3-4 PPM of sodium/potassium and 10-11 PPM of sulfate if you wanted to adjust your brewing water to account for it.

[Beer-lord]

Yes, my filter does remove chlorine and chloramines and I've thought about it and don't want to use campden. I've given everything a super-duper cleaning and am being very careful with my water adjustments. If this batch comes out with the same slight metallic taste, I guess I'll have to throw everything away and start over.

My friend who does some work at Abita told me he thought they've had problems that were related to dry hopping but he was going to try to find more out about it. I've given this more thought than I care too and just can't figure this oddity out. 1 batch is a freak shot but 3 batches in a row is problematic. Fingers crossed for good luck tomorrow.

[mashani]

If I dry hop this time of year I will get Brett for sure, but that's just my house...

Unless your house turned into a bug farm too...

It might be worth trying campden if it happens again - it would at very least rule out something like your RO filter not working right anymore... no reason to fear campden IMHO, I treat all my water with it, my beers are always better if I do.

[MadBrewer]

Yes, my filter does remove chlorine and chloramines and I've thought about it and don't want to use campden. I've given everything a super-duper cleaning and am being very careful with my water adjustments. If this batch comes out with the same slight metallic taste, I guess I'll have to throw everything away and start over.

My friend who does some work at Abita told me he thought they've had problems that were related to dry hopping but he was going to try to find more out about it. I've given this more thought than I care too and just can't figure this oddity out. 1 batch is a freak shot but 3 batches in a row is problematic. Fingers crossed for good luck tomorrow.

Hey Beer-Lord, these last 3 batches did you do the crank and shake when carbing or have you tried the set it and forget it and still getting the metallic flavor? I have had that flavor a couple times, I have always compared to a carbonic bite myself, perhaps from doing the crank and shake carbing method. Aside from that, chlorophenols can be compared to that type of flavor. Besides coming from chlorinated water, that flavor can leach out of tubing, not all tubing we might use in our process is designed for high heat, any tubing you might suspect? Anything for the mash or transfer of hot liquid should be high temp tubing.

Campden tabs are a safe bet even if using RO water because you just never know. But, 1 campden tablet can treat up to 20 gals of water...so you can break that tablet in half and then split that half between your mash and sparge water in most cases for 5-6 gal batches. Probably don't have to, but that's what I usually do. As Mashani mentioned, the impact to your water profile is negligible. But, it will help lower your mash ph. So if you are not checking actual mash ph, you could be outside your target mash ph. I usually see my mash ph about .1 lower when I use it so if you are targeting 5.3 you could actually be more around 5.2 or lower which can give the beer a sharper flavor (it would be more acidic) and that can sometimes come off as metallic. Are you checking actual mash ph or just relying on the calculators?

Last thing I can think of is boil ph? Do you ever check it? A good boil ph should be around your mash ph, something like 5.2-5.4 is a good boil ph. It will lower to around 5.0-5.3 at the end of the boil depending on where you started. If you have a high boil ph, which you probably don't using RO water you could pick up some off flavors and harshness from the hops, but not sure if they would come off as metallic, but off flavors none the less. But a high boil ph would only be the case if you are sparging with untreated high alkalinity water, which is not the case if using RO.

If you keep encountering this off flavor I would go after your tubing, it's the cheapest option. Maybe replace your tubing in the mash tun, transfer tubing, siphon tubing, and then mabye even beer line. Metallic isn't really an off flavor of infection that I'm aware of, so your cleaning and sanitizing practice should not be any problem.

[Beer-lord]

Good ideas, thanks.
No, I never use the shake method but the last beer had a slight metallic-twangy kind of taste before I even kegged it so.......
Never do check the boil ph but will today.
I change tubing every 3 months and its something I thought about.
Will see how today's brew goes in a few weeks. I will be back!

[MadBrewer]

So you are using an in home RO system? Do you know what your source water is like? Is it heavy in iron? RO systems do remove iron but if there is a lot of it it can decrease how well it filters it out. That was just another thought. Iron will obviously taste metallic. Since you are picking up the metallic flavor in the pre-kegged beer I'm starting to think more towards your water rather than anything else.

[Beer-lord]

Portable RO filter and no iron here. Had it tested last year.
I'm thinking it's maybe less metallic and maybe closer to a tannin flavor. But it does seem to fade as the beer ages and it's most noted when cold. As it warms it's slightly reduced.

[mashani]

Replacing tubing is a good idea.

I'm sure you are, but just to be sure, you are really testing your PH once you build your water back up from the RO and not just relying on calculators... right?

If not (again I doubt this but...) then you might want to test your RO water and make sure it's really what you think it is. I'm unclear about what you had tested last year, your source water or what is coming out of your RO.

Tannins would typically be from too high of a mash PH (IE around 5.8) or a busted thermometer (IE your mashing and sparging at higher temps then you think).

BUT, it is also possible to get tannins from your hops (they contain anywhere from 2% to 5% by weight), so depending on how much hops you use and variety the more you will get obviously, and also your boil PH affects how much gets extracted (higher = more), but this is as I've said before a combination of Time/Temperature and PH, so shorter contact time at a higher PH isn't necessarily bad (IE a short boil might have a higher PH as PH drops a bit as you boil). Dry hopping, the more you use the more you get too, and although it seems like it should be a lesser amount because your PH is lower and your temperature is lower, you now have alcohol serving as an additional solvent, so it changes things...

I guess a question is have you been playing with some new kind of hop and using a lot of it (the lot of it is a silly question in your case LOL).

If you have been playing around with decoction mashing, you might get more tannins too.

Some tannins belong in your beer, it wouldn't taste like beer if there weren't any in there. It's just a matter of how much and if the amount of astringency they produce in your mouth combined with the bitterness pushes your taste perceptions into a bad place.

Anyways, that's about all I got.

[Beer-lord]

Good thoughts mashani. I've tested ph before, during and after. I've made a ton of notes this brewday. The only thing I did different today is to not aerate the wort. Between steeping, whirlpool and going into the fermenter, I know I'm uber aerated. I took this out the equation in the extremely rare instance I got a bad can of oxygen.
Yes, some of my last few beers were hops I've not used before. Idaho 7 is one but I'm sure that's not what I'm getting. It really is not a deal breaker for me to drink these (my friends don't really care) but I know they are not up to snuff and definitely stand out.
I've read about tannins from dry hopping and still don't really understand it. Today's brew will only have 3 oz dry hopped. Everything I did today was noted so if things go south, I'll hopefully have a better idea of where to look.
My only concern is that my ph was lower than I'd like at 5.32 but 5.2 is the lower end so..........who the frack knows?

[mashani]

Lower PH if anything should give you less tannins. So if that was the problem, then it could be a good thing.

FWIW, I don't think you can actually over oxygenate before you pitch the yeast without using pure O2. It would take too long.

[Beer-lord]

Timing is everything! Here's some interesting and possibly related material:
http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/24/water- ... t-results/