Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculators

[ScrewyBrewer]

Around 1.07 is where the calculators get a lot further apart, as Mr. Malty would still using the ratios similar to the "0.75" type calculations, but the OP calculator would suggest that you might want to think about switching to what they call "Pro Brewer 1.0" by the time you are at 1.07. IE Mr. Malty would suggest something like 250 billion, and the OP calculator at "Pro Brewer 1.0" would suggest more like 350 billion.

It is reassuring to know that Screwy Calc calls for 246 billion cells for a 1.070 OG / 10.14 FG Ale with ~ 78% apparent attenuation.

[ScrewyBrewer]

When harvesting wlp-001 from a prior batch of beer I would rinse the yeast in the fermenter and then fill up a 1 gallon jar with the slurry. Two days at 36F and the slurry cleared leaving a thick layer of comapcted yeast at the bottom. Using a turkey baster to suck up the yeast in the thickest layer, I would then fill up pint mason jars and store them at 36F. When transferred to wlp plastic yeast tubes the compacted yeast in the mason jars filled from 50% to 75% of the tubes.

A full tube of wlp-001 has 100 billion cells, I would then pitch the equivalent cell count of my rinsed yeast. Counting on a 10% loss of viability per month for my rinsed yeast I would make a starter once the viability got down below 30%.

[Banjo-guy]

When harvesting wlp-001 from a prior batch of beer I would rinse the yeast in the fermenter and then fill up a 1 gallon jar with the slurry. Two days at 36F and the slurry cleared leaving a thick layer of comapcted yeast at the bottom. Using a turkey baster to suck up the yeast in the thickest layer, I would then fill up pint mason jars and store them at 36F. When transferred to wlp plastic yeast tubes the compacted yeast in the mason jars filled from 50% to 75% of the tubes.

A full tube of wlp-001 has 100 billion cells, I would then pitch the equivalent cell count of my rinsed yeast. Counting on a 10% loss of viability per month for my rinsed yeast I would make a starter once the viability got down below 30%.

When you buy a White Labs vile is the tube filled completely? How can you be sure that the yeast is compacted to the same degree?
In the Mr Malty calculator you have to decide how compacted the yeast is. This always seems like something I’m guessing at. I’m sure Im not the only one who just accepts what the calculator suggests. To me that throws all of the other calculations off.

I’m not trying argue, I just have always been confused on how to input these values into the calculators. I’ve never used White Labs yeast and don’t know how compact or filled the tube is.

[mashani]

I’m not trying argue, I just have always been confused on how to input these values into the calculators. I’ve never used White Labs yeast and don’t know how compact or filled the tube is.

Its not always the same for every strain, but figure about 1/3rd full if it's good and compacted - as in if it's been sitting in the fridge upright for a while without being shaken.

@Screwy, FWIW, at the pitch rates I am using, I regularly get 78-85% attenuation even in extract batches (using fresh MoreBeer extra light or pils extract, not old crappy canned stuff). This is why folks don't think my extract batches taste like extract batches. They do not have that extra "caramel/crystal malt or slightly sweet" flavor that stands out in many if compared to an AG batch.

I get 90%+ with some Belgian strains and/or if I add sugar. And of course with French/Bella Saison yeast I am always ending up at 1.003 or < no matter what my OG is (as low as 0.99something sometimes). Because that yeast is a strange creature (for real, it's a saccharomyces var diastaticus wild "beer/wine spoilage" yeast that happens to make good tasting beer so it got "domesticated" as such).

I know from experience that at Mr. Malty (~0.75) pitch rates in a 1.074ish beer I would taste acetaldehyde without longer conditioning but with the OP calculator "pro brewer 1.0" pitch rates in such a beer I would not. But I am an acetaldehyde super taster, so other people might not be bothered by it like I am.

[ScrewyBrewer]

I’m not trying argue, I just have always been confused on how to input these values into the calculators. I’ve never used White Labs yeast and don’t know how compact or filled the tube is.

Yeast is yeast if it's the same strain supplied by numerous manufacturers like Wyeast, White Lags, East Coast Yeast, etc. They all compact to the same density in the tubes, given the right conditions.

ECY-10-4-sml.jpg (56.55 KiB) Viewed 1156 times

In this photo I would use the two tubes in front to equal one tube bought from my LHBS. The White Labs tubes are a distant memory though since they introduced their Pure Pitch packets.

[mashani]

The White Labs tubes are a distant memory though since they introduced their Pure Pitch packets.

FYI: Some stuff still comes in tubes. Everything I've gotten from the yeast vault has been in a tube. I think it's the most popular strains are always in Pure Pitch right now.

[Kealia]

Late to the party but I also use the Brewer's Friend calculators linked to in the first post.
I tend to use the 1.0 rate or the 0.75 rate if for reason I can't get enough of a starter put together. Like mashani, my beers taste great early and I've never looked back once I started doing this.

[berryman]

The reason why I started this thread is because of how much more yeast and or bigger starter I am pitching now using the brewers friend calculator and wondered if that much is really needed and to compare to what others are using. But I will say, I use to be a big fan of using a secondary so I could brew more beer faster (having a lot of secondary's going to keep the primary open for more batches), but have pretty much quit doing it by using higher pitch rates, my beer gets done about the same time now that I would have transferred to a secondary before so why do the extra steps and take the risks? I still won't rule out a secondary on some things, but as far as turn-around time the higher pitch rates work. This is my take on this subject and my reasoning for the OP.

[John Sand]

I guess I'll see. BF suggested 11 grams S04 for my current Irish Red. I used 22, mostly because both packs were expired. It may be on tap in a month or less.

[mashani]

I guess I'll see. BF suggested 11 grams S04 for my current Irish Red. I used 22, mostly because both packs were expired. It may be on tap in a month or less.

How big was that batch and what was it's gravity?

BF at 0.75 Pro Brewer (which is the lowest I would use, except in something like a banana forward wheat beer) would never suggest a single 11g pack in a 5 gallon batch of even 1.04 beer. At 8 billion/g cell density (fresh S-04 as actually measured - clickie the cell density link it will take you to a dry pack chart, and you can plug in that value).

I think at 1.04 for 5 gallons it would say you are about 50 billion cells short IE it would think you should pitch 1.5 packs into that beer.

Now if it was a 2.5 to 3 gallon batch then it would be enough at 0.75.

Or if you picked "manufacturer recommended" instead of Pro Brewer 0.75, then it would have said 1 is enough, but the whole point of this for us who are using it is that we aren't pitching at "manufacturer recommended" rates because the people who designed this thing think it's too little/not optimal, and we discovered that it makes a difference for us too.

[John Sand]

Sure enough, I didn't scroll down far enough. It's a five gallon batch @1.053 estimated, put in the fermenter @1.058.
I highly respect your experience and advice Mashani, but I have had success with manufacturer's suggested pitch. The first time I made an Irish Red @ 1.057, I pitched a single pack of S04. That beer was very well regarded by friends and homebrewers. It received a 37 score at competition, losing points for carbonation not to style.

[mashani]

Oh, I've made great beer pitching less too.

It's more about having "better beer faster" then simply "better beer". IE in my case I don't have to wait to not taste acetaldehyde, which maybe someone else doesn't even taste, but even the slightest amount bugs the crap out of me. For bigger beers, no real conditioning time required as compared to before. Smaller beers (1.04-5) finish fermenting in like 3-4 days unless it's really cold, big ones at most 5-7 days even if they are 1.08, and the rest of the time I let them sit it's more like they are in a secondary - they just clean up in the fermenter and do so fast. At the Pro Brewer 1.0 or 1.25 pitch rates, you can be drinking a big Trippel or Quad at 4 weeks and be happy with it instead of waiting 3-4 months for it to condition like the recipe might call for. That sort of thing. A big trippel or quad might still improve with age, but it's not just because of hot alcahols or anything else weird/off/harsh that that you are waiting to condition out - they simply won't be there at all. It is more about blending at that point, or if slight oxidation might create some interesting extra flavors.

The seemingly huge pitch rates are about getting only 2 generations of growth in the fermenter if possible (3 at most) before the yeast starts to actively ferment your wort. That is enough to get the desired yeast developed flavors out of most (not banana) yeast, but otherwise so quick that nothing really can even compete with the yeast before it dies, so you get nothing else produced by the buggers that might need to be cleaned up by the yeast, and no off flavors produced by the yeast due to any type of stress or mutated yeast or the like.

It's not that lesser pitches do not work, like I said I would have argued these pitch rates were stupid in the past, but results over time have changed my mind. As in *always great results* over time, with beer I can drink right away. My pipeline is smaller as I don't have to age anything. I just brew more when I want instead of trying to force more brewing into specific timeframes to build up my pipeline.

Also in my specific case, if I was to get house brett in the beer it doesn't get a chance to do anything until the yeast has pretty much fermented out everything it can. So it acts more like brett added at bottling time then brett that actively fermented my beer. So I get some flavors, but they are mellower, more in the background, and don't detract from whatever it was I was making or radically change the beer.

So that's why I like it.

It doesn't really cost me much, just DME when I use liquid yeast, I just spin up starters.

Dry yeast is cheap, so I just pitch a whole 11g pack into 3 gallons of 1.05ish beer, which is what that calculator would say is just about perfect at 1.05. If I go into 1.06 territory I just do it as a 2.5 gallon batch and do the same, calculations work out that way perfectly.

[John Sand]

Thanks, that makes sense. I'll keep it in mind for bigger beers especially.

[berryman]

I really am a believer in the higher pitch rates and see it better on every beer I brew. An example, I have used Wyeast 1214 (68-78) temp range four times on the same recipe. First time pitched in the middle of the range and let it climb but had more bubble gum then I would have liked, next time pitched on the low side and nothing for a long time and finally put in 1 pac US-05 for a jump start, third time made a 1L starter as per the yeast calculator for this OG and pitched at 68 degs. and very little lag time and I finally had the beer tasting the way I was looking for. Yesterday same beer same yeast 1L starter Pitched around 3:00 o'clock At 68 and this morning good active fermentation. I have it down to 66-67 but after a couple days will let it climb to where ever.

[mashani]

With the various Belgian or wheat strains you have to tinker a bit to find what it is you want, as you change the ester profile with the pitch rates like you mentioned. IE if you wanted that stronger banana or bubblegum, then maybe you don't want to pitch as much. But mostly it's a good thing, and it doesn't seem to affect the apple/pear/stone fruit esters as strongly.

FWIW, I pitched 500 billion cells into my 4 gallon batch of dopplebock, what Brewers Friend calls "Pro Brewer 2.0" for lagers. It came out of the fermenter (it was in there for 24 days or something like that because I was lazy) totally smooth. I didn't even do a D-Rest, as it didn't need one, the sample I pulled was great tasting. It was completely nice to drink and delicious at just 3 weeks in the bottle and couple of days in the fridge. I'm still letting the rest age and laager for a bit longer because I have a pipeline deep enough that I can, and it's strong so it will last for years, but I could drink it all right now if I wanted to. It's perfectly clean and smooth, has nothing at all that needs to condition out.

Mr Malty would have had me pitch half of that amount. And I guarantee it would not be something I'd want to drink right now if I did. It probably would end up fine in the long run still after a long bout of laagering, but if you want to have it be "better faster" then the crazy seeming pitch rates Brewers Friend suggests work wonders.