Ventilation for Grain Father

[Banjo-guy]

I am trying to decide if I should get the new Zymatic or not. It's a little hard with no specifics about price and features. I'll have to decide on Tuesday when I see how good (or bad) of a deal they are offering.
Meanwhile I have other options. I only brew 2.5 gallon batches. If I don't upgrade I'll use the machine that I have for as long as possible. I doubt that Pico will continue to give the level of service to the old units as the new. Up until now they have been replacing anything that broke for free, even if you are out of warranty.

Some of the electric BIAB systems look really nice and have a nice combination of automation and manual work. The Grainfather will probably cost what the Zymatic would cost me after rebates and trade ins. One thing that I really like about the Zymatic is the fact that it doesn't actually reach boiling temperature and produces very little moisture. I have no need for ventilation with the Z. (except for the smell that my wife hates).
If I go to a Grainfather I assume that I will need to put in a venting fan. I brew in my garage and already have a 4 inch laundry type vent (with no fan at the moment) installed to the outside. What would I need to do to ventilate my brew area that is in the back of my garage? How much would it cost to get the correct fan, range hood ect... I have one small window in the garage in addition to the door. I think the would take care of he fresh air recirculation.
Does anybody have an idea what I would need?

[FrozenInTime]

I use either a propane of elec. BIAB. I brew in the garage also. Both of these produce a lot of steam/humidity so I always leave the garage door open. Both of them if it's above zero.

[mashani]

I'll just throw this out as a "radical thought".

So all the things like the Grainfather, the Mash and Boil, etc. have an adjustable thermostat.

So I do not see any reason *if you want* that you can't set the "boil" temperature at say 195 or 198 or something like that, and then it basically acts just like your Zymatic in that regards. As you know you do get good hop utilization, boil or not, since you already are doing this with your current equipment.

And as you know, you don't get weird DMS issues because of the lack of a rolling boil. There is nothing "magic" about the Zymatic that prevents this. It's just that the whole concept is wrong/misunderstood and it doesn't really happen that way in real life.

So I am just saying, you might be able to use such a thing and not have to worry about ventilation any more then you do with the Zymatic.

EDIT: @Berryman has a mash and boil, so he can verify this for sure, but I'm 99%+ sure that this is possible on any of the units. They basically all have 2 power settings, one for mashing and one for boiling, and a thermostat you can set/program for any temperature you want for rests or boiling (because altitude, one persons boil is another persons boil over).

[Banjo-guy]

I'll just throw this out as a "radical thought".

So all the things like the Grainfather, the Mash and Boil, etc. have an adjustable thermostat.

So I do not see any reason *if you want* that you can't set the "boil" temperature at say 195 or 198 or something like that, and then it basically acts just like your Zymatic in that regards. As you know you do get good hop utilization, boil or not, since you already are doing this with your current equipment.

And as you know, you don't get weird DMS issues because of the lack of a rolling boil. There is nothing "magic" about the Zymatic that prevents this. It's just that the whole concept is wrong/misunderstood and it doesn't really happen that way in real life.

So I am just saying, you might be able to use such a thing and not have to worry about ventilation any more then you do with the Zymatic.

EDIT: @Berryman has a mash and boil, so he can verify this for sure, but I'm 99%+ sure that this is possible on any of the units. They basically all have 2 power settings, one for mashing and one for boiling, and a thermostat you can set/program for any temperature you want for rests or boiling (because altitude, one persons boil is another persons boil over).

The Zymatic is constantly circulating wort. I guess you could say it creates an artificial roiling boil.
To recreate that on a Grainfather You need to set up a pump to move the wort.
It seems possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mashani]

I think the only thing the "constant recirculation" in the Zymatic actually accomplishes post mash it getting the hops into contact with the wort. I don't think it makes any difference in any other way. In a grainfather you'd just be tossing in the hops.

But a grainfather does have a pump and recirculation, it uses that for mashing. Maybe if you really wanted to you could pump the wort during the "pseudo boil" too. But I don't see any reason you would need to.

I do 20-30 minute @flamout lid on hopstands without active cooling with large amounts of hops sometimes, so 0 hops are actually "boiled" as such, and get plenty of IBUs from that.

The "circulation" isn't necessary, just contact with the wort.

You just don't have contact with the wort without circulation in the case of the Zymatic.

[Banjo-guy]

I think the only thing the "constant recirculation" in the Zymatic actually accomplishes post mash it getting the hops into contact with the wort. I don't think it makes any difference in any other way. In a grainfather you'd just be tossing in the hops.

But a grainfather does have a pump and recirculation, it uses that for mashing. Maybe if you really wanted to you could pump the wort during the "pseudo boil" too. But I don't see any reason you would need to.

I do 20-30 minute @flamout lid on hopstands without active cooling with large amounts of hops sometimes, so 0 hops are actually "boiled" as such, and get plenty of IBUs from that.

The "circulation" isn't necessary, just contact with the wort.

You just don't have contact with the wort without circulation in the case of the Zymatic.

So the movement of wort doesn't do anything? I thought perhaps it helped with dms.

I have an incorrect concept in my mind that the hops have to be in touch with all of the wort for utilization.
I have to reconsider.

I just saw a side view of the new Z. I'm not too excited about what I saw. Hopefully what I saw was just an early prototype.

[mashani]

I really don't think the circulation during the boil does anything except make the wort contact your hop baskets.

As far as "DMS", circulation or not isn't the issue, or at least I don't see any science behind that idea.

s-methylmethionine (the DMS precursor)'s actual boiling point is something stupid like 140C or something like that. You can't literally "boil it off" or "remove it by boiling" (in wort boiling temps), that's as far as I can fathom a myth. I guess if you are lucky some of it might get carried off in the steam, but even if any is, I really doubt it's anywhere near as much as people think because it's not in a volatile state, so it's not going to want to go anywhere. So although a vigorous boil is causing off all sorts of aromatic hop oils to blow off into the air (and pissing off SWMBO), the s-methylmethionine is not anywhere near its boiling point, so it's not going to easily go anywhere. Because... Science. Not "brewing knowledge" which was made up as far as I can tell by people making SWAGs in the past.

Now actual dimethyl sulfide (DMS), you can boil off, because its boiling temp is as low as 100F / 37C. But... 100F. Not 212F. So you do not need a rolling boil to remove it. You don't need anything even close to a rolling boil. As in, if you are 100+ degrees F, it's to keep going away as long as you don't cover your pot to lock it in. Maybe at that crazy low of a temperature you'd want to extend your "boil" a bit longer, but who is "boiling" their beer at 100 degrees F? We are talking about more like 198 vs 212 here in this "no boil" concept. Yes a "boil" is removing it. But it doesn't actually require a "boil" in the sense we consider a "boil".

And although the s-methylmethionine might be making some DMS as you chill, the reality is until you chill *a lot more* then where that reaction happens, the actual DMS produced is still being boiled off/removed as long as you aren't locking it in to your brewing vessel. From a DMS reduction standpoint, from my take on it, it would make sense to get your wort down below 160, to cut off the reaction, but then NOT chill rapidly down below 100 and let it hang out between 160 and 150 for a while. (whirlpool some hops while you are at it because yum?). That should remove a lot of any DMS that was produced during cooling and/or left over after boiling all by itself. The longer the merrier.

Also, my experience is that regardless of what I do boil wise (or lack of it), vigorous fermentation will remove DMS, as it gets scrubbed off by the CO2. I think that maybe that doesn't work so well in commercial environments where they highly pressurize their fermenters. But I pitch a lot of yeast and my fermenters are not pressurized.

That said, lagers tend to have less vigorous fermentation, at least if someone keeps them at 50 and don't pitch a hell of a lot of yeast, so it will potentially bite people more there if it does carry over, especially in a pressurized fermenter and since they were using grains with more pre-cursors available and since they probably didn't whirlpool anything. So... easy answer is... whirlpool something... because yum? LOL.

[Banjo-guy]

I’ll have to spend some time studying just to respond to you!
It’s just that we are always told to have a roiling boil. I think that you’re saying it’s all about temperature and that the splashing of the boiling wort doesn’t have any effect on DMS precursors. (realize that I’m already over my head and that I’m not in any way challenging what say)
I’m learning something new. Thank you.

I just checked and the Grainfather’s boiling temperature can be set where you want it. That’s means it could be done the way that you suggested.

[mashani]

It’s just that we are always told to have a roiling boil. I think that you’re saying it’s all about temperature and that the splashing of the boiling wort doesn’t have any effect on DMS precursors

If it does, it's got to be minimal at best / luck. It is not some "magic bullet" that should make a difference, because the precursor will simply not boil off at that temperature.

Now convection could help bring actual DMS to the surface where it will readily escape since it's very much agitated unlike the precursor. But you don't need a rolling boil to have convection. Your wort is moving around all the time even at sub boiling temperatures. Because your heat is at the bottom and your pot is tall, so there is temperature differential. You basically have your own little "weather pattern" going on in there, pump or not as long as there is heat at the bottom. The wort is recirculating quite well even before it is truly boiling (just watch your pot as you get into those 190+ temps and see). Note that any precursor/dms that becomes DMSO also breaks down as long as you stay at or above 190. So just keep your "boil" above 190.

All other DMS derived compounds that matter go away too as long as your above 140. So chilling to whirlpool temps and then giving a rest/hopstand/whirlpool should get rid of pretty much anything.

Now at lower temps once your wort loses it's built in convection because temperatures stabilize, then actual active whirlpooling probably makes sense and might make a difference, as the artificial convection might help bring more DMS that was produced to the surface where it can vaporize until you get below 100. If it matters a lot, that's where it does. But not when your wort is 190 or > or sitting on an active heat source.

I hope that made sense.

And remember, except for ales, and stuff like IPLs we aren't really always trying to eliminate every bit of DMS we can. A lot of traditional low hopped lagers would taste like flat boring stuff without some of those sulfur compounds just a little bit below or at or slightly above taste threshold. What we don't want is so much that it tastes like boiled cabbage or creamed corn.

And also remember that lots of bacteria make DMS, so lots of people who think they got their super strong DMS issue from their boil practices instead got it from their sanitation practices. Many of the bacteria that produce DMS die quickly once the yeast get involved and the PH goes down/alcohol goes up, they are not like lactobac or "beer infecting bugs" that make your beer funky. But they might make enough DMS before the yeast get involved to push the DMS above a taste threshold. I think a lot of people who have "DMS" problems actually have this problem. This would *especially* be apparent in lagers where pitched in the 60s or 70s, and then chilled down into the 50s. Because the bugs can get a foothold, and the yeast will start slower then they would at stable ale temps. Especially if under pitched. Which is why its really important to pitch a hella lot of yeast in a lager. It does not take very many (relatively speaking) of those kinds of bugs to make noticeable DMS and they grow fast until the alcohol/ph murders them.