Exercising and heart rates

[bpgreen]

I decided to start a new topic so we don't derail the other thread.

Wow, mashani! I thought I was doing pretty well, but I got worn out just reading about your exercise routine.

According to my smart watch, it looks like I burn about 1000 calories a day on average. And that includes all the exercise I get.

With your regimen, I'm kind of surprised your resting heart rate isn't even lower than it is. I don't work out nearly as hard as you do, and my RHR is in the 30s most day. Some days it actually hits 30. My smart watch doesn't register a rate below 30. I think it assumes it's not on the wrist below 30.

I think there have been a few days when it may have dipped below that, because one time I looked at it and saw --- instead of a number, which is the same thing it shows when it's off my wrist. I watched it for a little while and after a few seconds, it showed 30, so I deduced that it just stops at 30.

I have had my resting HR drop below 40 when awake, but that requires me to "do less" IE "taper more often". I wouldn't want my resting HR to go much below 40 though when awake on a regular basis. Mine is already less then 1/4th of my max HR, for most "normal somewhat fit" people it's more like 1/3rd, unfit people more then that. If mine was regularly in the low 30s, I'd consider it to be some kind of bradycardia and get checked out by the doctor. That would be like less then 1/5th of my max HR, and that's generally going to be considered "weird" unless you are an Olympic endurance athlete or winning Pro Cycling races or an elite Olympic Nordic skier. At 42 when awake mine is still considered sinus bradycardia, but it is considered benign because of being an athlete. But if some non athlete had it, it would be cause for concern. Low 30's I think would potentially be pushing the concern button for anyone except for the most elite athletes, and it's not even necessarily good for them. (see below *).

You might want to test your resting HR the old fashioned way in the morning, IE look at the clock while lying in bed, start counting at some minute, and stop the next. Just to make sure your smart watch is actually reading your pulse correctly. I'm not measuring mine with a watch, but a Wahoo Ticker X or the old fashioned way. Hopefully it's not really that low, or if it really is, hopefully you are a genetic mutant and it's actually OK in your case. The numbers I'm throwing out are all when I am awake and either wearing my HR monitor or manually testing myself the old fashioned way. My HR probably does drop below 40 when I am asleep, but that's OK because it's still not going to get dangerously slow when it's above 40 when I am awake.

* I mention this because a resting HR while awake getting down into the low 30s is actually potentially dangerous, especially at night when sleeping. If it can actually cause your blood to become kind of viscous/thick/syrupy if your ability to uptake so much oxygen that your body only needs that slow of a HR is because of a higher then normal red blood cell count.

There have been pro cyclists and endurance athletes who's resting HR got low like that who literally had to set alarm clocks at night to get up and spin for a while on their bike to get their blood moving to avoid blood pooling/clots/such, some have even died because of it. Now some of them were probably EPO doping to increase their red cell count, but if so their resting HR would have never gotten into the low 30s if they had not been. I assume you don't dope with EPO, but have you had a blood test lately, just to make sure something weird isn't going on?

Not trying to freak you out on purpose, but really that low isn't typically "normal", and potentially "not good". If is really that low and everything is actually "normal" in your case, you might have missed your calling in life and should have probably been cycling at a pro level or running Olympic marathons, because you have the freakish capacity to either pump huge amounts of blood per beat due to an extra large or powerful heart muscle, or your body is genetically more excellent at taking up oxygen out of your blood stream because of some factor... In either case the potential limit of your VO2 max exceeds most of humanity and is in super elite athlete territory. If it gets below 30bpm, your heart is basically able to pump enough blood comparable to if you had the heart the size of an elephants, or your body is crazily able to uptake oxygen (and your vo2 max potential is nuts and way more then mine).

@docpd might have some input here if he is around.

Thanks for your input.

My fitness watch has two different ways to check RHR. The default is to average the rate while I'm sleeping. If I use that method, my RHR is usually around 50. The other way is to take the lowest rate during the day. That usually happens within about a half hour of finishing some kind of exercise.

If I check my heart rate around the time I wake up, it's usually around 45 or so, and if I check it at random times throughout the day, it's also in the low to mid 40s. The times when it drops into the 30s are usually shortly after finishing some kind of workout.

I don't know if this factors into it or not, but I live at an elevation. I'm at about 4500 ft.

I've read that having a low resting heart rate at my age can be bad because it means that the heart isn't able to keep up, but I've also read that if one is active, a low RHR is a good sign.

I should probably make an appointment and get a full physical. I'll bring up my RHR with the PCP.

[mashani]

I think I'd "call" your resting HR the 40s that you get in the AM or during the day normally. And 40-45 or what not is perfectly normal for an endurance athlete.

But the 30s after exercise, I've never heard of a HR dropping abnormally below what the normal resting HR is quite like that.

As a stupid wild ass guess:

How "quickly" does the device measure your HR in that other mode? Is it based on an average of 1 minute, or is it actually detecting a single beat or 10 seconds or something and then guessing from it?

If the device is very sensitive, IE measuring for say 5 or 10 seconds and then estimating from it, what I would guess is happening is that you are like me and randomly have skipped heart beats (Premature Atrial Contractions). If so, this is probably benign but should be checked by a Dr. to be sure. If I was wearing a device that would take the lowest reading over something like 10 or 15 seconds and I had a couple of PACs I'd read something dumb like that too. But it's not the real number. I have PACs many times a day, have had them for 20+ years that I know of, but it was determined to be a non issue after wearing a monitor for 72 hours and tracking it. Lots of people have PACs that are benign.

Cutting back on caffeine made a big difference in how many I have. I do sometimes have them during or after exercise, if I am manually measuring my HR and I have one, I just count it as 2 beats from a RHR measuring perspective.

I'm apparently "weird" in that I can *feel* when they happen, where most people don't even notice. It doesn't feel "bad", I just can tell.

If your not getting dizzy when it happens, it's probably ok, but I'd still get checked out.

BTW, elevation does increase your red cell count and ability to uptake oxygen vs. someone like me. It doesn't actually give you more capacity at your altitude then I have at mine if we had equal genetic capacity. But if you came down to my altitude you would gain capacity because you have more red blood cells to support yours at your altitude, where mine is stuck wherever it is because my body doesn't think I need more, so you could uptake more oxygen and effectively have increased your VO2 max. If I came up to your altitude, I'd lose some of my theoretical VO2 max temporarily until I adapted to build up the red cell count to support it if I spent enough time training there. I would only be able to get back to the same VO2 max as I had at my altitude at your altitude (unless I trained it higher, but there is a genetic limit, its why some people can be pro's and other people can't). But then I'd then temporarily gain VO2 max when I came back home because I would have an "abnormal" red cell count at that point. But it would eventually go away without me doing crazy things to maintain it.

It's why lots of pro and Olympic athletes train at altitude. They are all maxed out or nearly so at their genetic limits. So doing this maximizes their capacity for whatever their genetics can support at that altitude. Then when they come back down to the lowlands to compete they get an advantage because they can carry more oxygen due to higher red cell count and temporarily gain more VO2 max. It's like installing a bigger carburetor, it lets you burn more fuel. It's basically like doping except legal.

They also sometimes sleep and/or spend as much downtime as possible (IE read a book or watch youtube) in tents that reduce oxygen levels to simulate altitude for the same reason (that would be one of the crazy things).

EPO doping is doing the same thing except either pushing it above levels that training at altitude can support and/or at the very least allowing someone to get the same benefits without training at altitude. Except it's illegal. Where altitude and oxygen tents are legal.

[docpd]

bpgreen is correct that if your resting HR indeed was in the 30’s that would be potentially dangerous. It does sound like that may be an artifact of the way your smart watch calculates resting HR. A resting HR in the 40’s would be ok for a well trained endurance athlete as long as you are not getting light headed or dizzy. However if your HR is really dropping into the 30’s after exercise that could represent a problem with your natural pacemaker. I would recommend seeing your doctor and consider having a stress test done.

Altitude training and EPO both increase the total number of red blood cells, which increases the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood. EPO can be dangerous because it increases the viscosity of the blood. In well trained endurance athletes such as pro cyclists, their resting HR may dip into the 30’s or low 40’s during sleep and if the blood is “thicker” that can cause fatal blood clots. In the 80’s and 90’s a number of pro riders did die suddenly in their sleep from EPO use.

EPO is used legitimately in cancer treatment to help boost red cell production that is knocked down by chemotherapy. It is very ironic that the same drug that helped Lance Armstrong survive testicular cancer was the same one he used later to cheat.

[bpgreen]

@docpd, mashani is the one who said that a heart rate of 30 would be a concern. I thought it meant that my heart is really healthy.

I think that mashani identified the reason for my RHR dropping to 30. I suspect that either my heart occasionally skips a beat or maybe the smart watch isn't really all that smart and sometimes misses a beat (this is probably more likely since I've read that the wrist sensors aren't nearly as accurate as the chest straps). So if it's doing a continuous sampling of the heart rate and it detects two beats when there should have been (or really were) 3, it records it as 30 instead of the 45 it should be. I'll have to watch for my heart rate to drop really low (according to the watch) and take my pulse manually at that time to see what the real rate is.

I don't get dizzy or anything at any point during the day. I don't know if I'd be considered a well trained endurance athlete. I swim hard (others swim faster, but I try to push myself) for about an hour a day, and walk at a pace of 3-4 miles an hour for anywhere from 2-4 miles a day. It's been hot lately, so I've been taking several 1 mile walks instead of 1 long walk, and with the heat, I seem to be walking closer to 3 mph (usually about 3.2) than 4 (for a while I was hitting almost 4.5 mph on my first mile, but even before it got hot, I slowed down from that). I used to ride my bike a lot, but this summer has been hot, so I haven't been biking as much.

I vaguely remember a doctor commenting on skipped heartbeats a long time ago. He seemed unconcerned about it and just commented in passing.

In case it makes a difference, I'm 60. I just found a chart that says that the RHR for an athlete of my age should be 50-55.

If I use the default RHR method for my smart watch (the average heart rate while I'm sleeping), it tends to be in the 50s. Maybe that's a more accurate measurement and I shouldn't try to trick it into using the lowest rate during the day.

The first smart watch I bought that had a heart rate monitor had me really worried, because when I'd swim, it would clock my heart rate at really ridiculous numbers (I think it was often over 160). It didn't have a "swimming" setting, so when I'd swim, I'd choose something like "aerobics other" as the exercise. When I bought a new smart watch, it had swimming as one of the exercises. The first time I swam with the new watch, when I selected swimming as the exercise, it displayed a message that the heart rate monitor is disabled during swimming because it can't accurately track the heart rate during swimming. I suspect that what was happening is that it was detecting my heart rate and adding a beat for each stroke that I took or something along those lines.

The only downside to the new watch is that the app sets a goal of 150 "intensity minutes" per week. Intensity minutes are defined as getting my heart rate above a certain point for at least 10 minutes. Getting the heart rate above another threshold doubles the minutes (but I still have to be above the rate for 10 actual minutes; if I get above the second threshold for 10 minutes, I get credit for 20 minutes, but if I'm above the threshold for 9 minutes, I get 0). Since the heart rate monitor is turned off during swimming, I don't get any credit for intensity minutes during swimming, even though in reality, those would probably all be double minutes. I basically ignore the 150 minute goal, because I know I'm hitting it in the pool, even if it's not registering in the app.

[mashani]

If you want a reliable HRM for swimming, this is a good one, especially if you have anything "Garmin" already to go with it.

https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Heart-Rat ... 012H8IPQS/

It will work fine without a wet suit if adjusted properly. Ignore the reviews that say it won't, they are talking about the "run" version, not the "tri" version, Amazon somehow mixes together the reviews for things sometime.

I don't bother with HRM for swimming anymore as I don't go all out when I swim, it's not good for my shoulder. If I am swimming long distances, IE if I was to go do a 2+ mile swim, I switch to TI (total immersion) style swim strokes when free style, so I'm spending a lot of time on my sides gliding through the water, less strokes, saves lots of energy, but it's also not as fast and not pushing my HR.

My all out efforts are on the bike or track workouts, or once in a while a set of HIIT intervals doing things like burpees and mountain climbers. I use the Ticker-X because it tracks my cadence when running (the above one will do that too) and also likes to work with the rest of my sensors, which also happen to be Wahoo, and my power meter and power meter software also like that they are BLE and Ant+, it helps because that Ant+ can talk to my power meter, and the BLE can talk to my phone/software simultaneously without weird things happening. But the Ticker-X isn't a good HRM for swimming, it's not very reliable unless worn under a wetsuit.

[bpgreen]

I've seen that HRM before, but I can't convince myself to spend that much money just to find out my heart rate while swimming. It's probably more accurate than the watch, so it would be useful in other exercises, also, so maybe I'll get it at some point.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Since the beginning of the year I've constantly been wearing a FitBit. My RHR range since then is 64-68bpm. Which I think is ok. If it were to drop well below that I would make sure the band was tight enough. If the lower rate recorded was accurate I don't think I'd be feeling right.

[mashani]

Since the beginning of the year I've constantly been wearing a FitBit. My RHR range since then is 64-68bpm. Which I think is ok. If it were to drop well below that I would make sure the band was tight enough. If the lower rate recorded was accurate I don't think I'd be feeling right.

That is somewhere between a "good" to "above average" resting HR if your between ages 45-65. IE it's totally normal for a healthy person.

The 42 or 45 type numbers we are throwing out aren't "normal", they are very well trained athlete #'s.

If your RHR actually does drop lower then your body needs to support itself properly then you'd not be moving enough blood around per beat and get vertigo, feel dizzy, or worse. That would be a bad kind of bradycardia and require intervention.

That's why I thought 30 was a but too nuts for BPGreen, if it really hit 30 for more then 30 seconds or so I'd think he'd fall over athlete or not. I know I would.

[bpgreen]

Since the beginning of the year I've constantly been wearing a FitBit. My RHR range since then is 64-68bpm. Which I think is ok. If it were to drop well below that I would make sure the band was tight enough. If the lower rate recorded was accurate I don't think I'd be feeling right.

That is somewhere between a "good" to "above average" resting HR if your between ages 45-65. IE it's totally normal for a healthy person.

The 42 or 45 type numbers we are throwing out aren't "normal", they are very well trained athlete #'s.

If your RHR actually does drop lower then your body needs to support itself properly then you'd not be moving enough blood around per beat and get vertigo, feel dizzy, or worse. That would be a bad kind of bradycardia and require intervention.

That's why I thought 30 was a but too nuts for BPGreen, if it really hit 30 for more then 30 seconds or so I'd think he'd fall over athlete or not. I know I would.

Looking at the charts on my phone, it looks like it'll drop into the 30s for really brief periods, and those are surrounded by numbers in the mid 40s, which lends credence to those being errors in detection/measurement.

[docpd]

You also need to consider the device you are using. I use a Garmin HRM strap for cycling and it matches us extremely well with my Apple Watch. I have a Polar HRM strap that I use on the Elliptical trainer that generally correlates well with the watch but occasionally gives exercise readings that are clearly inaccurate, such as 90’s while at peak exertion or 190 at times with moderate exertion. These outlying readings are generally fleeting, and average HR for the workout is usually within 1-2 bpm of what the watch reads.

That said, a true HR of 30 after exercise would be concerning to me. I would agree that taking a pulse manually when the watch reads in the 30’s would be appropriate. Occasional PVC’s (extra beats) by themselves are generally harmless, but exercise usually decreases these. If they increase during or after exercise, that would also be cause for concern.

[mashani]

Occasional PVC’s (extra beats) by themselves are generally harmless, but exercise usually decreases these. If they increase during or after exercise, that would also be cause for concern.

I have PACs, not PVCs. I don't know what BP might have.

This is why I got to wear a monitor for 72 hours, just to make sure nothing bad was likely to happen.

Once in a while I'll get a PAC when going all out, which feels… more interesting then when they normally happen… but the monitoring showed that it wasn't an issue.

I don't have more PAC's post exercise then pre, and I normally don't have any during exercise, but it does happen once in a while.

What makes me weird is that when following the directions to push the button on the monitor every time I felt something, I actually pushed the button for ever single PAC I had over a 72 hour period except for when I was asleep of course. I actually do always feel them. That is apparently odd according to the doctor, even though PACs are more readily noticed then PVCs, but he wasn't worried about it.

I think PACs tend to get reduced by less caffeine and stress, so exercise is most certainly good for them, and cutting back on caffeine made a big difference for me.

My understanding of what happens, at least in my case, is that two beats fire very close together, so close they are perceived as a single "harder" (feeling) beat, and detected as such by a HRM since it's not as sophisticated as an EKG, but then there is a long pause, sometimes even more then 2 beats long between them until everything gets back into sync.

[docpd]

Mashani, it looks to me that no only are you incredibly fit, but you have payed proper attention to your body and have had the appropriate tests. PAC’s are generally not serious at all, but it is good that you had the 72 hour monitor. Caffeine does increase both PAC’s and PVC’s and exercise does reduce PAC’s usually.

The main things to be concerned about during or after exercise would be chest pain, shortness of breath, or dizziness. These could represent coronary artery disease, early heart failure, or a dangerous arrhythmia. Sounds like you have had none of those. I have had a few very fit patients have heart attacks or cardiac arrest during exercise, but they all had some sort of warning that they chose to deny or ignore. They generally also had family histories of heart disease.

Your level of exercise will very likely extend your life significantly and keep you functioning at a high level far longer than most people. Keep it up, but just pay attention to your body.

[bpgreen]

I manually checked my heart rate at random points throughout the day, today, and they matched up with what the watch was reporting. These were usually ranging from the mid 40s to mid 50s. It says that my RHR today was 39, but I don't know when that supposedly happened. I don't see it that low on the chart for the day (and I even logged in on my laptop so I could see a bigger chart). Oddly, when it said that my RHR was 39, it also said that the lowest my heart rate had been doing that 4 hour stretch was 42, which is also the lowest I see it at any time during the day in the app.

I think there's something odd going on when it reports my heart rate really low. I haven't felt dizzy, short of breath, chest pains, etc at any time when it has shown that. I think my real RHR is usually around 45, and that the really low readings are mistakes. I know 45 is also low, but since I get an hour or two of exercise (mostly aerobic) most days, that doesn't seem to be too unbelievable.

One thing that seems odd to me is that my sleeping heart rate seems to be around 50 most of the night, and I'll see a heart rate in the 40s when I'm sitting at my computer, even after a cup of coffee. But I manually checked my pulse around that time and got a similar reading.

[mashani]

This may sound weird, but do you do any breathing exercises or meditation like thing?

HR is normally faster when inhaling, and slower when exhaling. This is called "respiratory sinus arrhythmia". It is totally normal, at least as long as you have properly working lungs and nervous system. It can actually be trained to be quite stark in the difference (IE yoga breathing exercises).

If you check on your device, and inhale quickly, but exhale slowly (but not with restriction), you will likely lower your overall heart rate for that time period. It could even happen subconsciously.

If you slow your exhalation by using restriction methods (forcing your breath out through a constricted airway, nose, mouth, etc), then you will actually increase your HR though along with your blood pressure.

Think "yoga breathing" to lower your HR, and it will lower your blood pressure too. IE one pranayama (yoga breathing), technique you inhale for a count of 4, hold breath for a count of 7, exhale for a count of 8, making sure you exhale without restriction and fully. It works, if you are feeling stressed out and you do it, you can test yourself both on a HRM and a blood pressure cuff before and after and see the difference after practicing it (assuming you are doing it right). Theoretically if you practice it enough it starts to influence your actual breathing pattern, or at the very least you fall into it naturally without thinking about it when stressed.

Anyways, even if you don't do it on purpose, I wonder if at certain points in the day you just get really chill and start to breath different.

[bpgreen]

This may sound weird, but do you do any breathing exercises or meditation like thing?

HR is normally faster when inhaling, and slower when exhaling. This is called "respiratory sinus arrhythmia". It is totally normal, at least as long as you have properly working lungs and nervous system. It can actually be trained to be quite stark in the difference (IE yoga breathing exercises).

If you check on your device, and inhale quickly, but exhale slowly (but not with restriction), you will likely lower your overall heart rate for that time period. It could even happen subconsciously.

If you slow your exhalation by using restriction methods (forcing your breath out through a constricted airway, nose, mouth, etc), then you will actually increase your HR though along with your blood pressure.

Think "yoga breathing" to lower your HR, and it will lower your blood pressure too. IE one pranayama (yoga breathing), technique you inhale for a count of 4, hold breath for a count of 7, exhale for a count of 8, making sure you exhale without restriction and fully. It works, if you are feeling stressed out and you do it, you can test yourself both on a HRM and a blood pressure cuff before and after and see the difference after practicing it (assuming you are doing it right). Theoretically if you practice it enough it starts to influence your actual breathing pattern, or at the very least you fall into it naturally without thinking about it when stressed.

Anyways, even if you don't do it on purpose, I wonder if at certain points in the day you just get really chill and start to breath different.

I don't do any breathing exercises on purpose, but it's possible that I get really relaxed at times and my breathing changes to something like yoga breathing. If so, it would kind of make sense for this to happen while relaxing in front of the TV after taking a long walk or bike ride.