BeerBorg

mashani wrote:FWIW, I stir the mash 3-4 times, and I sometimes tend to have a thicker mash then some would for BIAB due to pot size restrictions and then need to top up for the boil... since I have a smaller pot and can only do 2.5 gallons AG, I am using a small enough amount of grain where I can do a "tea bag sparge", as in I pull the bag, let it drain, dunk it, pull it, let it drain, repeat until the running's become much lighter in color. I typically am getting 70-80% efficiencies doing this. I do the same for 5 gallon batches, except those are in effect partial mashes, with this same process as the PM and extract to build up the rest of the beer, with a top up at the end, due to pot size / stove top boiling restrictions.

I'm usually doing it as an oven mash, which works well for me since I'm using smaller pots.

Mashini, So are you saying that at the end of your mash, you pull the bag out, dunk and repeat in the same pot that you mashed in, or a different sparge pot? I would't think the runnings would ever get lighter in color if your dunking in the original mash tun, as you are dunking in what is now the wort. Please to explain.

Also, do you get better efficiency/conversion using less water in the mash. I always start with a full volume of water because I thought that's how BIAB was done. But are you saying that you get better conversion with less strike water and then topping off?

Mashini, So are you saying that at the end of your mash, you pull the bag out, dunk and repeat in the same pot that you mashed in, or a different sparge pot? I would't think the runnings would ever get lighter in color if your dunking in the original mash tun, as you are dunking in what is now the wort. Please to explain.

Also, do you get better efficiency/conversion using less water in the mash. I always start with a full volume of water because I thought that's how BIAB was done. But are you saying that you get better conversion with less strike water and then topping off?

Sorry, I do it in a separate smaller pot with pre-heated water, and then add the running's back into the main pot for the boil. I'm using 16Q and 12Q pots, because that's about as much as I can boil on my stove. So I typically do the BIAB in the 16, the dunk in the 12 and put it all back into the 16 for the boil. Make sense?

I don't know if I get better efficiency from the thicker mash, I just do it that way because of my small pot sizes. I'm just saying that I don't get bad efficiency because of it following a process like above.

If I could boil a big pot and was always brewing bigger batches, I'd probably be doing it more like Beer Lord though.

mashani wrote: Sorry, I do it in a separate smaller pot with pre-heated water, and then add the running's back into the main pot for the boil. I'm using 16Q and 12Q pots, because that's about as much as I can boil on my stove. So I typically do the BIAB in the 16, the dunk in the 12 and put it all back into the 16 for the boil. Make sense?

I don't know if I get better efficiency from the thicker mash, I just do it that way because of my small pot sizes. I'm just saying that I don't get bad efficiency because of it following a process like above.

If I could boil a big pot and was always brewing bigger batches, I'd probably be doing it more like Beer Lord though.

I've gotcha now Mashini.

thanks all.. not giving up.
dave- re the math and numbers and such, yeah easier is better but ive always been addicted to over-complicating everything i do. dont know why. i dont try to match styles for water, but was trying to get the ph to jive with what ez water said it should. my understanding was ph affects efficiency. i was making an imperial stout and for the amount of grain i should have hit about 1.06 boil grav... got 1.04. i should have hit 1.09 for og...hit 1.06. it will still be a stout so i'm not that put out... better luck next time eh?

my biggest mistake was not mashing long enough.

mashani- one of my fixes i was mulling over would be to do a similar tea bag type sparge. i would mash with a volume normally used for regular mashing (ie 1.25 qts per lb) .. then in a separate container have a volume of sparge water and drop the bag in it...stir and dunk repeat til it ran clearer.

question: by popping open the lid of the mash tun and stirring while mashing every 15 mins or so, dont you lose a lot of heat?

You do lose heat by stirring, but you extract sugars, so it's a tradeoff. But consider that how fast temperature can change depends on the mass/volume, which in BIAB since you have more water to grain ratio is actually more stable then a traditional mash. So that helps minimize the loss. My water to grain is in-between traditional mash and full volume BIAB, so I'm not gaining the full benefit as if I was using a bigger pot, but I get some.

But since I mash in the oven since I'm doing small batches or PMs, when I stir I just fire the oven back up for a minute which raises the ambient to a higher temp them my mash, so that counters the loss. (remember to turn the oven back off once it's heated if you do this). But since my volume is smaller, I actually do end up doing a wee bitty step mash because of this sometimes - as in that I may gain 4-6 degrees over an hour, but that's ok with me, it makes good beer, and I just start at 147-148 range if I'm looking for a high fermentable wort and still get one. I'd rather slowly gain temp then slowly lose it.

Zorak, I understand about having a tendency to overcomplicate things. I have a very lazy body but my mind is hyperactive. I obsessively research everything I do and then I do as little as physically possible. There's almost always more than one way to skin a cat, and you've already got some great tips here so far. But anyway, I'd like to add a few things with you that seem to work well for me.

Adding a bit of acid blend to the water is a nice lazy way to lower the ph to help increase efficiency. You can also do an acid rest first to naturally lower the ph. I do both of those things. I also step mash to coax every last drop out of the grains that I can. I do at least 30 minutes at each of the 3 sacchrinization temps. It may sound like a lot of work, but it's just time. All I do is sit around drinking and listening to music or having a snack while monitoring the temp and giving it an occasional stir. I tend to use less mash water and then sparge and squeeze.

Like most have said, you'll find the routine that works for you.

Your first go at all grain should never be a high gravity beer. After a certain point the more grain you add the less efficiency you will have. This is why even experienced brewers will supplement with extract when doing barley wines and such. Get some experience with 1.050 to 1.060 beers under your belt before you attempt another imperial type beer.

gymrat... check. I see now that with all grain efficiency drops as you start getting larger volumes of grain. so if I was doing another big beer do a partial mash of say enough grain to get around 1.05 and hitting the flavors i want... and when done supplement it with lme or dme to hit the gravity.. then boil?

next all grain will likely be an esb around 1.04 or 1.05 so i'll work on getting the kinks out of the process.

as mentioned, I was disappointed in the results but not discouraged. I remember the mess I was with my first extract brew! yet I pressed on...

on a plus side - the not so imperial stout I am fermenting smells nice and the us04 is ripping through the fermentables. it will likely be a very solid stout of around 7% abv.

There's a very interesting podcast on Basic Brewing about brewing high gravity beers with a few, very good suggestions. There is some math in it at first but if you listen to the whole podcast, it's very easy to follow.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
His original article in the Wine Journal is here: http://beerandwinejournal.com/efficiency-gravity/