BeerBorg

bpgreen wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that IBUs don't tell the whole story. 100 IBUs in a beer that had a 1.060 OG and a 1.015 FG will be perceived differently from 100 IBUs in a beer that had a 1.060 OG and a 1.020 FG. The latter beer will seem less bitter because there are more unfermented sugars so there's more sweetness to offset the bitterness. Similarly, if you start with an OG of 1.060 and end with a 1.010 FG, the latter will seem more bitter because there's less residual sweetness.

Of course, similar things apply for different OG/FG combinations. A higher ratio of OG:FG means less residual sugar and more sweetness to be balanced by the hops and vice versa.

Yeah I always look at my Bitterness ratio as Beersmith calls is IBU/SG I keep my Ipa's around 1-1.50 and my Doubles can get up to 2 or more..

I like this chart related to this...

swenocha wrote:I like this chart related to this...

I think this scale may be a little outdated...Esp with today's palates

I totally agree. But conceptually, anytime a noob has a question related to understanding the concept of BU:GU and the like, this visual works nicely. Maybe we should make a more modern version... hmm...

That scale is sorta ok for most styles of beers. But it's only sorta because:

1) A totally different scale should be made though for American (especially West Coast) style IPAs/DIPAs, etc. In regards to "modern tastes" that's where this applies.

2) Also Saisons, because they don't play by the same rules as far as levels of attenuation/malt sugar left, don't really work out in that scale.

3) OG and Scaling, that's NOT the only factor either. FG actually matters a lot. IE 1.070 with 1# of sugar is very different then 1.070 with all malt. Belgians don't need a lot of IBUs to be balanced, because of the sugar causing higher attenuation. Saisons don't need a lot of IBUs to be balanced because of the extreme attenuation, especially when using French Saison, which is a "domesticated" starch/large sugar chain eating yeast strain (it is a Saccharomyces var. diastaticus mutant that happens to make beer without Band-Aid flavor). And of course Brett and Sour beers change the balance too.

4) Also malt matters. 1.05 OG and NN IBUs with all pale malt will be perceived very differently then the same with a bunch of Munich or Vienna or a good bit of Crystal. The Munich especially leaves a malty backbone that can stand up to more IBUs and make it seem "balanced" where with just pale malt it would seem harsh. That's why I throw Munich into most of my Session IPAs. I don't put crystal into most of my IPAs (except English), but I will use a large amount of Munich happily and then pile on more hops.

I'm not sure you can really represent all of the possibilities on a single chart like that.

Great feedback all thank you!

Wow a pound of hops in a 5 gallon batch is awesome, I nearly had to use a shovel to get all the hop debris out of the kettle using less than half that amount! This recipe has consistently come out at 1.060OG and finished at 1.012FG each time I've brewed it using US-05 dry yeast. I calculated my eBIAB mash thickness and it came in at a 1.40 to 1 ratio which is thin enough to increase the percentage of fermentable sugars a bit and I mashed at 148F for 90 minutes.

Later today I'm going to brush up on my BU:GU ratios, I hadn't thought of that in sometime.

Stinkfist wrote:

swenocha wrote:I like this chart related to this...

I think this scale may be a little outdated...Esp with today's palates

Well...not really. The argument that today's palates can stand more bitterness may be valid, but it doesn't change the IBU, nor should it. IBU is a fixed number, not a perception. It won't change, even though the drinker may think it's not bitter enough.

Sort of like when you get off the Thruway, after having driven 65 mph for an hour or so, and you're now in a residential area, going 30, and you feel like you're crawling. Thirty mph is thirty mph, no matter what it feels like.

BigPapaG wrote:
HOWEVER, the addition of more late stage hop oils and aromatic compounds and post-boil hopstands have really increased my enjoyment level... Haven't hit a threshold there yet...

Having said that, I find I'm using smaller bittering charges and more late hops but overall, I try to balance the recipe to get the most of what I want from the least amount of hops. And the bonus is, really great hoppy beer from less hops overall! Thus, I'm saving some money too!

I don't know about 'saving some money', but I am also going light on the bittering charge(s) & adding pretty much all the hops in aroma additions at the end of the boil & dry-hopping. That is hitting the hop 'sweet spot' for me.

200 IBUs of Pliney hops... are not helping me save money

mashani wrote:200 IBUs of Pliney hops... are not helping me save money

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Nope, no they are not...

My point, however, eas I fing I CAN use less hops and achieve the levels of bitterness, oils and aromatics that work for my when designing my hoppy ales.

A small bittering charge at somewhere between T-30 and T-60 to get within 75% of my IBU target...

Then a small flavor and or aroma or both addition, depending on style, to set a flavor and or aroma...

Followed by a good hopstand / whirlpool addition using temperature rests to release even more hop goodness!

I agree actually. I will say that I am getting very nice IBU *and* flavor *and* aroma contributions from my lid on hot starting temp hop stands. Starting hot with the lid on is the key there though. I tried it out of desperation due to brett, as I can't cool to low temps with the lid off or bad things happen. (not that bad, I like my brett... but bad in the sense that maybe other people do not).

I get 10+ minutes of full IBU extraction, until it falls below 200 or so it's full IBUs, and until 180 it's extracting a good bit of IBUs - it's basically flameout addition, but the lid goes right on. The lid going right on keeps the flavor/aroma compounds from blowing off into my air. As it cools they recondense and end up back in the beer. Doesn't make my house smell as good, but that's the point - anything you smell isn't in your beer anymore.

So doing this lets me use less hops like you say. My late hops become all purpose.

Don't do a high temp starting stand like this without a lid on though. You will lose all the aroma and lots of the flavor. For lid off you have to cool it some.

I am doing lots of 20 minute boils + lid on hop stands lately, that simple formula makes great beer. I've even been doing it for Belgians/Saisons using higher AA hops like Aramis, but literally as 20 minute boil then lid on (but with no extra hops at flameout as they aren't appropriate, unless I'm just ignoring style), and just let the 20 minute addition steep longer to get the IBUs. Preserves the flavor, gets full IBUs needed, with just one simple hop addition.

It's become a thing I will do for just about anything because I like the results so much - and keeps my Brett at bay. Except for when it doesn't LOL.

I'll likely adjust my Pliney or "Tiny Pliny" if I go that route to be based on more late/hop stand additions. Maybe some hop tea too. My Pliney recipe calls for mash hops, but I am not a believer in them, I can't fathom how they can do anything useful scientifically. I will probably hop tea those and add it at flameout or as a "wet dry hop". I think that will get me better flavor/aroma out of those that way.

Yup, yup, yup...

And so, because of that, I fugure if you can't taste, or smell more by adding more hops, then don't add them... You're done...

FedoraDave wrote:Well...not really. The argument that today's palates can stand more bitterness may be valid, but it doesn't change the IBU, nor should it. IBU is a fixed number, not a perception. It won't change, even though the drinker may think it's not bitter enough.

Sort of like when you get off the Thruway, after having driven 65 mph for an hour or so, and you're now in a residential area, going 30, and you feel like you're crawling. Thirty mph is thirty mph, no matter what it feels like.

Yes and no. I think we're probably in agreement on this and it's just a semantics thing. I agree that IBUs are static and as IPAs have become more popular, what people consider bitter has changed somewhat.

But there is absolutely a perception thing, which is where the bu:gu ratio comes into play. And also where it falls short. This has been touched on by a number of posters in this thread. If you've got a lot of unfermented sugars in the beer, 100 IBUs will be perceived as less bitter than a beer that has more fully fermented sugars and 100 IBUs.

So the BU:GU chart is a helpful starting point, but we know that if we're brewing a high ABV beer and we're adding table sugar to up the abv and thin it out, the sugar will ferment almost completely, so the gravity it adds won't cause it to move lower on the perceived bitterness chart. On the flip side, if we add a bunch of steeping grains, they'll increase the OG, but will also increase the FG, so they'll make the final result seem less bitter.

Let me just add that I love and drool this thread.

Ok tomorrow I'm off to the LHBS to pick up 6 ounces of Cascades for dry hopping 10 gallons of IPA. After reading this thread I figure if 15 ounces are good then 21 ounces are better.