BeerBorg

John Sand wrote:I'm considering some old brass taps. I have yet to find anyone who said that their beer flavor was affected by brass. .

Don't do that, bad idea

Thanks for your professional view. What about all the brass taps in old pubs and bars? Plenty of that stuff is around, much still in use.
Just as a nearly unrelated aside, there are bronze valves. They are used for intake and outlet of seawater on boats. I don't know if any are useful in brewing. I doubt they would be cheaper than stainless.

Ask the people of Flint Michigan how they feel about it? lol Just spend the extra for stainless..

Gymrat wrote:Working for a very safety conscious company I had it drilled into my head "when in doubt take the safest course of action". That was why I paid extra for the stainless steel ball valve. That way I don't have to think about it. How much money are you saving buying the cooler over the pot you were looking at? Another $10 or $20 for piece of mind sounds like a bargain to me.

This pretty much sums up where I've landed on this. Good discussion although I am left wondering why people are still making and selling these in brass versus stainless steel.

I'll throw this out there for further discussion, I did a search for brass ball valves and I found a bunch out there like this one from Home Depot. There seems to be a lot of options of Lead Free Brass Ball Valves out there.

I seem to remember John Palmer dispelling the effects of lead leeching into wort when using brass several years ago, if I can I'll try to find where I read it.

From BYO Magazine

"Brass
Brass is a group of alloys made from copper and zinc, with some lead thrown in for machinability. The lead percentage varies, but for the alloys used in plumbing fittings, it is 3% or less. It is this lead that can be dissolved off by the wort. While this teeny, tiny amount of lead is not a health concern, most homebrewers would be happier if wasn’t there at all. (See the sidebar on page 61 for a method to remove surface lead from brass)"

From Brewing Metallurgy

"Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens, then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution. "

I know here in Ohio, I bought some fittings for some plumbing I was doing, and got to the checkout and there was mixed inventory in the bin, I could not buy the fitting I picked up because it did not meet state requirements for toxic material, had to find one that had the correct bar code. Now California has so many regulation for toxic material, I would bet the house that HD and Lowes in CA. carry lead free brass fittings.

I started with stainless to avoid dissimilar metals. My mash tun is stainless. One pump has a bronze head the other stainless. I would go with the stainless.

The lead in Flint's drinking water comes from the lead pipe that makes up so much of their water infrastructure. I am very surprised that it did not in Detroit first. Another plus for being on a well!

ScrewyBrewer wrote: From Brewing Metallurgy

"Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens, then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution. "

See my post on the previous page. It explains what this does from a simplified chemistry perspective. The vinegar (or other acid) is important, as without it a lead carbonate film will likely coat your vessel, and your wort (or wine or soft water or other acidic substances) will be what extracts it later.

But the fact is, if any surface lead remains, an acidic solution (like wort) can still extract some of it. By doing the above, you are hoping you hit the "sweet spot" where you get more of it into an easily extracted form, and then get it outa there. The acid will also take out any previously built up film. So you would get less extracted by your wort later.

I am unwilling to say that this will actually remove all surface lead in the fittings, as I doubt it. I'm sure done right it "lessens" the amount, at least until you put a bunch of acidic stuff in there again or something with a lot of oxygen, both of which will be reactive with the brass.

So ultimately I don't think you can be lead free if you are storing acidic stuff in a vessel exposed to brass.

Is it a significant amount? Probably not. But as I said, it's probably best to avoid any amount that isn't unavoidable. You are exposed to small amounts of lead by all sorts of things. Why add more if you can help it?

The fact that there is no definitive answer solidified my choice for stainless steel. To paraphrase what mashani said: If I am able to avoid it, I'll feel better having done that.

out here in super regulated CA, yes you can still buy brass valves. Acording to the law, they are to be used in agriculture. I will say it again, there is no such thing as lead free, the amounts vary between ag and consumer intake, but there is still lead there for your consumption. IMO there are sooo many toxins we take in everyday, if you can reduse what you can why not do it. For the extra few bucks it is worth it for piece of mind. Also, I think that SS valves are a better product and last longer.

As for there being brass taps out there, they are probably bronze, or they are old.

I am with mashini 1000% here.

This has been an interesting thread. My take on it......yes there is lead in brass, very small amounts, and in home brewing it would be so minute it wouldn't be noticeable. There are a lot of things out there not good for you but in long term brass fittings would be the least of worries. I like stainless everything and for a few dollars more the way to go, a good piece of mind. In a few years will have the same discussions about stainless and if it's good for you. Who remembers the PET discussions on the MB forum.....................

berryman wrote:This has been an interesting thread. My take on it......yes there is lead in brass, very small amounts, and in home brewing it would be so minute it wouldn't be noticeable. There are a lot of things out there not good for you but in long term brass fittings would be the least of worries. I like stainless everything and for a few dollars more the way to go, a good piece of mind. In a few years will have the same discussions about stainless and if it's good for you. Who remembers the PET discussions on the MB forum.....................

Yep there were some very spirited discussions over there! Waiting for the gov to tattoo us at birth with warning label:
"WARNING: STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT LIFE IS THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH"

berryman wrote:This has been an interesting thread. My take on it......yes there is lead in brass, very small amounts, and in home brewing it would be so minute it wouldn't be noticeable. There are a lot of things out there not good for you but in long term brass fittings would be the least of worries. I like stainless everything and for a few dollars more the way to go, a good piece of mind. In a few years will have the same discussions about stainless and if it's good for you. Who remembers the PET discussions on the MB forum.....................

I'm not concerned with it being *noticeable*. I'm concerned with adding lead into the mix when it can be avoided.

And I agree that this has been an interesting discussion. It seems like it may be of valuable to more people than just me.