BeerBorg

mashani wrote:You could do that, but it's probably "more work" then just doing it all in there.....

I was thinking a bit quicker as water would be heating for the sparge as the the mash was ongoing elsewhere but you would be right about a bit "more work".

P.S. I saw this today.

bpgreen wrote:That would certainly work. I like the ease of leaving the wort in the M&B....

I'll probably try that as well but that may be a later option. The main reason for my interest in the Mash & Boil was for the electric heating. Use as an all-in-one is secondary.

The_Professor wrote:

bpgreen wrote:That would certainly work. I like the ease of leaving the wort in the M&B....

I'll probably try that as well but that may be a later option. The main reason for my interest in the Mash & Boil was for the electric heating. Use as an all-in-one is secondary.

I think that the best way for somebody to use their equipment is the way they want to use it.

With all the talk about this thing I finally looked it up and it seems pretty cool.

A few questions:
1) When you pull the grains/basket and then sparge, doesn't that need to drain into another pot/kettle and then be transferred back to the M&B?
2) I guess if you're not doing a typical sparge and doing more of a full volume BIAB that's a non-issue, correct?
3) Is anybody using the fermentation lid to do everything in the same vessel? (https://shop.fifthseasongardening.com/beer-and-wine-brewers-edge-mash-and-boil-fermentat.html)

What are the downsides? Currently, I'm doing a lot of lifting as I don't have dedicated brew space and this seems like it would remove most, if not all, the lifting and pouring I'm currently doing with my mash tun (cooler), kettle and hot liquor tank.

Sell me.

Kealia wrote:With all the talk about this thing I finally looked it up and it seems pretty cool.

A few questions:
1) When you pull the grains/basket and then sparge, doesn't that need to drain into another pot/kettle and then be transferred back to the M&B?

No. You pull the basket up and give it a slight turn so it sits on top of the pot (it's hard to explain, but there are little feet that stick out slightly from the pipe and the top is shaped so that it drops inwhen positioned one way and catches it when positioned another way). It drains in and you sparge directly into the wort as it comes to a boil.

2) I guess if you're not doing a typical sparge and doing more of a full volume BIAB that's a non-issue, correct?

True. You can just let it drain the rest of the wort in as it comes to a boil. I haven't done it, but that`s the way it would work.

3) Is anybody using the fermentation lid to do everything in the same vessel? (https://shop.fifthseasongardening.com/beer-and-wine-brewers-edge-mash-and-boil-fermentat.html)

I'm not, but I could see the attraction.

What are the downsides? Currently, I'm doing a lot of lifting as I don't have dedicated brew space and this seems like it would remove most, if not all, the lifting and pouring I'm currently doing with my mash tun (cooler), kettle and hot liquor tank.

I have it on a wire cart (made for a printer). I keep a bunch of things on the cart that I use during the brew. Since it's wire, it makes it easier to hit the reset if I get an E4 error (has only happened once when I turned it on without adding the water). The downside is that I need to stand on a chair to get enough leverage to lift the basket.

It's 110, so it maxes out at 1600 watts (the Robobrew maxes out at 1500). So it takes a while to get from mash to boil. Since you're sparging during this time, that may not be a big deal.

People at lower elevations report that it doesn't boil very rapidly (not a problem for me). However, a vigorous boil isn't actually needed.

I don't get very good efficiency. A lot of people report fantastic efficiency (80+% seems common). I've never gotten good efficiency, but it mattered less when I was getting most of my fermentables from LME. I'm getting better, but it's taking time to get it dialed in.

As mentioned, it requires a GFCI outlet. Most modern homes have them in kitchens, laundry rooms, bathrooms. If you're in an older house, there are adapters.

If you're into really big beers, you might need to use extract to get the gravity you want. The stated max is 16 lbs of grains, but I've read that people have used more than 17 lbs.

Sell me.

I'm not going to try to sell you, but I'll give you a summary of my experiences.

Before buying the M&B, I'd only done small batch all grain batches. I had the equipment for full sized all grain batches, but brewing outside seemed like too much of a hassle. This makes it really easy to do an all grain mash in the kitchen. It also has a timer so you can set it to be at mash temperature when I wake up and start right away without needing to heat the mash water (I've also done overnight mashes so I could start the sparge/heat to boil when I wake up.

In summary, it makes all grain brewing easy to do indoors and can save time, as well. It automates some of the process for you. It's not as automated as the Grainfather, but it's a lot less expensive. It's not perfect, but I like it for what it does.

bpgreen wrote:

Kealia wrote:With all the talk about this thing I finally looked it up and it seems pretty cool.

A few questions:
1) When you pull the grains/basket and then sparge, doesn't that need to drain into another pot/kettle and then be transferred back to the M&B?

No. You pull the basket up and give it a slight turn so it sits on top of the pot (it's hard to explain, but there are little feet that stick out slightly from the pipe and the top is shaped so that it drops in when positioned one way and catches it when positioned another way). It drains in and you sparge directly into the wort as it comes to a boil.

Thanks. After posting I looked it up and I see how this works now.

I'm going to go through the other thread and read through it as I have a few questions that are likely covered there. But I'll post back when I have.

I got around to unboxing the Mash & Boil today. It's a nice looking unit, not overly large or heavy.
I'm assuming I may start using it in January.
I need to get odds and ends like a GFCI adapter, a stand to put it on and whatnot.

FYI: There is a way to bypass the sensor if the ERR4 becomes a problem for you. I have a picture of how to hotwire it that came from a facebook group that I can post here. I have not done it, as I've only gotten the ERR4 2 times in ~30 or so batches now. But it is possible. The sensor is really only there as "run dry" protection, it just might start to trip on you if stuff like proteins stick to and burn to the bottom during the boil. I only had this happen in beers with 60% wheat or rye and both were also 5+ gallon batches. It's never happened in 3 gallon BIAB style batches for me no matter what the grain bill was.

As far as selling you, all I can tell you is that it's gotten me doing almost exclusively all grain batches again after a 20 year mostly extract + steep hiatus. Because pretty much I can let it do it's thing and ignore it and it's not any more difficult for me to clean then a pot. I can even totally ignore it during the boil because when I do a 3 gallon BIAB like beer in it it's impossible for it to boil over. Basically pulling and cleaning the basket takes no more time then I used to spend monitoring the stove to worry about boil overs, and the mash I just ignore it mostly. So although it takes more "time" duration wise, it takes me no more "time" in actually doing things.

As far as the fermenter lid, I have it, but I have not fermented in it yet. I will one day. But for now what I use it for is slow chilling. I put it on at the end of the boil with a #11 foam stopper in the hole that is meant for lab use growing pure cultures on a stir plate. It lets it "breath" during the slow chill, but the "breathing" can't suck in bugs or fruit flies or anything because they are made to prevent that. You can autoclave the thing, sanitize it, whatever it won't hurt it. Williams sells them if you want an easy source. I just then cover the lid with foil to keep the cats from ripping out the foam stopper, and let it sit for a long time until it's cool. I just adjust my recipes around the slow chill like an Aussie would do for no-chill.

One comment on no-chill/slow-chill. The M&B is really well insulated. That's a good thing for the mash and boil part. But if you're doing a no-chill, it can take more than a day to get to pitching temps.

Slow Chill to pitching temps takes ~20 hours for me with 3 gallon batches with ambient temps in the mid 60s due to the really darn good insulation on the thing. But other then that, I've never had issues with it and done it at least 25 times using the setup I have. Can't trace a single infection or anything "off" due to it.

The 5+ gallon batches, I put into the fermenter(s) at a higher temperature then pitching and let it chill the rest of the way in the fermenter. My fermenters are theoretically safe up to about 180 degrees, so I can put stuff into them quite hot if I like. I've never done it quite that hot though. But 150, no problem.

mashani wrote:Slow Chill to pitching temps takes ~20 hours for me with 3 gallon batches with ambient temps in the mid 60s due to the really darn good insulation on the thing. But other then that, I've never had issues with it and done it at least 25 times using the setup I have. Can't trace a single infection or anything "off" due to it.

The 5+ gallon batches, I put into the fermenter(s) at a higher temperature then pitching and let it chill the rest of the way in the fermenter. My fermenters are theoretically safe up to about 180 degrees, so I can put stuff into them quite hot if I like. I've never done it quite that hot though. But 150, no problem.

What kind of fermenter do you use? I use food grade plastic buckets (mostly those made for fermenting, but a couple of repurposed buckets from buying wheat from Costco). I did some Googling and they seem to be able to handle a lot more heat than I realized. I may start doing my no-chill in the buckets to speed things up.

I use the 3 gallon "mini-cooper" fermenters that both Coopers and Mr. Beer sell. I found a Coopers version at a garage sale and liked it so got more. Both Coopers and Mr. Beer sell them with $spendy kits, but Mr. Beer started to sell them as individual items and sometimes they go on sale for 50% off. At that price they are worth it. (that is why I have 4 of them). Note that Mr. Beer calls them 2 gallon fermenters, but they are actually safe for fermenting 3 in with the extra piece (the collar thing).

They are like a half sized normal Coopers fermenter which is for 6 gallon batches and has 7 gallons with headspace with the "krausen collar" attached. These actually hold 4 gallons with headspace with their "krausen collar" attached, but only 3 gallons can be used for liquid. They are like buckets except totally seamless and smooth inside, there are no 90 degree edges at the bottom, so they are super easy to clean. You can put them in the dishwasher on a sani-rinse cycle and it will not harm them.

They are made out of food grade Polypropylene and safe at high temperatures. Some Aussies use the big ones for overnight slow chill and put boiling wort right into them (I would not suggest this unless you have a newer type of spigot that Coopers sells with silicone gaskets), but for sure 160-180 degreeish wort is perfectly OK as is, and it doesn't take too long for the mash & boil to chill down to that temperature on its own. It's just when it gets down around there that it gets really damn slow.

You can get replacement spigots from Coopers DIY site for $5. The spigots easily are attached and removed and come apart to clean with a simple twist while the lever is in the open position.

Anyways if your buckets are food grade HDPE or food grade Polypropylene then they are as safe as plastic gets to hot fill up to some point. HDPE should be fine at 160 or there about. Polypropylene is used for pretty much every commercially hot filled food container there is and can be filled hotter then that.

That makes sense. I worked in restaurants all through high school, and I remember we put hot food into plastic food buckets all the time.

FWIW, Aussies put near boiling wort right into HDPE jerrycans, but that is above what any of the manufacturers would say is safe for those containers. I don't think due to chemical leaching concerns, but more about structural integrity if there are seams/edges, and the liability of boiling stuff went flying everywhere.

I'd stay 180 or <, 160 would be totally safe as in "within manufactures tolerance" for pretty much any HDPE container.

Looks like I am aiming for the weekend between Christmas and New Year for my first brew day with the Mash & Boil.
I picked up a wort chiller to use instead of an ice slurry in the sink. There is a submersible pump on the way to have a go at recirculating from an ice chest.
Starting to feel like I am opening a brewery.