BeerBorg

Beer-lord wrote:So other than your 60 minute bittering, ALL the hops were added after flame out, right?
I've not done any hopstands below 170 and all mine are about 200-180 but I've also used a few 10,5 & 0 additions but the more I read, the more I see that the 160 degree hop stands don't do any more than dry hopping though you likely need more hops when you dry hop than when you hopstand.
This is interesting stuff for me.

Can you cite this Paul? I'd like to read that. From everything I've read (I'll try to find references, too) I settled on 170 being the best option.
Maybe we can start a thread just for HopStanding information in the Advanced Techniques section.

Chris, if you changed your perception/expectation of this beer to be a Pale Ale instead of an IPA would it be better? I'm guessing you're like me: I can only taste what a beer is supposed to taste like so when I miss the mark it just tastes like things are missing. Once I change my mindset to what it actually *IS* I can actually appreciate them more.

Just waxing philosophically here...

I know that the internet renown, Denny (mostly on the AHA forums) did a few experiments and his opinion is that late additions and dry hopping gives his beers the most noticeable aroma. There are lots of threads on that forum that discuss this going back a few years.
I peruse so many forums, I'm not sure where I found it but here are some things I've kept:

Using the Malowicki equations:

a 15 minute hopstand at 194 deg F will net 44.6% of IBUs vs boiling
a 30 minute hopstand at 194 deg F will net 47.7% of IBUs vs boiling
a 60 minute hopstand at 194 deg F will net 54.3% of IBUs vs boiling

So I consider the 50% to be a pretty good estimate; although I would never hopstand at that high a temperature. Here are estimates for other temps:

170 deg F ~ 15%
160 deg F ~ 9%
150 deg F ~ 5%
140 deg F ~ 3%

Another factor to consider is how to handle dry hopping your hop-forward beers if you employ an extended hop stand. Rock Bottom Restaurant & Brewery performed an extensive study on hop stands and dry hopping under the guidance of the Portland, Oregon brewmaster at the time Van Havig, (now of Gigantic Brewing Co., Portland, Oregon). The study was published by the Master Brewers Association of the Americas Technical Quarterly and considered beers that were hopped in four different ways, short hop stand (50 minutes) and no dry hops, long hop stand (80 minutes) and no dry hops, no hop stand and just dry hops and finally half the hops in hop stand (80 minutes) and half the hops for dry hopping. Beers produced using exclusively hop stands and the beers produced using exclusively dry hops will both result in well-developed hop characteristics, but there were some nuances. The long hop stand developed more hop flavor and aroma than the short hop stand indicating that essential oils were still soaking into the wort after 50 minutes. The exclusively dry hopped beer received its best marks in the aroma department, higher than the hop stand beers, but scored lower for its hop flavor. The beers where only half of the hops were added for the hop stand and half were added for aroma ended up scoring high in both departments. Havig's study also showed that adding 1 lb./bbl (0.45 kg/bbl) Amarillo® dry hops produced the same amount of hop aroma as ½ lb./bbl (0.23 kg/bbl), indicating diminishing returns at higher dry hop rates.

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/07/th ... lpool.html

I don't know as I think much of this is simply up to the taste of the brewer. I love all of the above, the bitterness, the flavor and aroma and I've found that FWH and/or 60 minute additions, with late additions and generous dry hopping produces the beers I most like (I'm talking mostly IPA's here). My personal opinion on the very few hopstands I've done is that I don't get all that much aroma from it and I think the little bit of flavor I may pick up I can get with adjustment of the later additions.

Kealia wrote: Chris, if you changed your perception/expectation of this beer to be a Pale Ale instead of an IPA would it be better? I'm guessing you're like me: I can only taste what a beer is supposed to taste like so when I miss the mark it just tastes like things are missing. Once I change my mindset to what it actually *IS* I can actually appreciate them more.

Just waxing philosophically here...

Yes of course it would. And that's what kind of happened last night as I drank this. At first I was telling myself that it was in no way an IPA, and I had messed the whole thing up. But after I had finished the glass, my thoughts changed in that it was still a good beer and I just had to change my brains perception of it to enjoy it for what it is. The problem is, I'm not really sure what it is. But in the end, that doesn't even matter either. As long as I can enjoy it, that's all that really matters.

Paul...good information you posted there. As for the Malowicki equations, that only addresses IBU's and not aroma/flavor. Too bad there isn't an IAU (International Aroma Unit) or an IFU (International Flavor Unit) that could be measured. But then again, that would really wreak havoc on my OCD if there was!!!!

Oooh, I like the idea of an IAU!

I'm at work, supposed to be working, but I'll see what I can find, too. What I perceive is that the beers that I've hopstood (word?) at 170 seem to have longer lasting aroma versus dry hopping and the beer seems less resiny or oily in the feel. But as you said Paul, that's all taster's preference. Plus, I don't drink dark beers so how can I be trusted?

Why don't we ask the international beer community to work on the IAU part? I'm sure something like that exists anyway. They have sniiffers for natural gas, why not hops?
Ron, I trust you, just not too much.

FWIW, I've gotten aroma from hopstands 170 and even 180+, *but* I am putting a tight fitting lid on the pot. And leaving it there while the wort cools down at that point until the stand is over. The lid keeps in the blown off aroma compounds (as in my room does not start to smell as awesome as it would with the lid off) and then they re-condense back into the wort as things cool down. Those compounds are not destroyed by heat, they just blow off into your air and smell up your house. I'd rather they stay in the beer. I do not get DMS from doing this.

This might not be as easy to pull off with a big boil from a cooling perspective, but for small volume batches I do its easy 'nuf.

Good point - I also use a lid during my hopstands. I believe the 10 mark is below the temperature where DMS is created so there is none to drive off and therefore get captured by the lid and drip back into the wort. On the other hand, that is exactly what may happen with the aromatics. Although I think the thought behind this temp is that they don't get driven off in the first place.

I've mentioned before that the NoChill brewer I know literally puts boiling wort into his cube and seals it, lets it cool overnight or even sit for a week before he ferments. And gets no DMS - at least none that any of us who have consumed his beer have noticed. So I think as long as your boil is long and vigorous enough to drive off large enough amounts of the precursors, you are pretty safe - seems to be one more of those brewing rules that everyone is told to beware but doesn't really happen like HSA. This is why I've stopped fearing to put a lid on my pot anytime after flameout, and I've not gotten burned by it yet.

You guys have been full of a lot of good information here. I've already started rewriting the recipe to simplify the ingredients and use stuff I'm more familiar with.

One thing I am struggling with though....will I get enough flavor profile out of just a hop stand? Currently, I am using only a 60 minute bittering addition and everything else is hopstand and dry hop. But I'm wondering if I should use a small amount of a flavor addition at T-20 minutes or so to give it a little flavor punch. I also plan on using the information that Paul posted above and doing my hopstand for 80 minutes. These two sentences from Paul's post really stuck out to me...

Here are a couple of thoughts on a few of those sentences from Paul's post:
"The long hop stand developed more hop flavor and aroma than the short hop stand indicating that essential oils were still soaking into the wort after 50 minutes." This is why I think I'm going to go with the 80 minute hopstand.

"The exclusively dry hopped beer received its best marks in the aroma department, higher than the hop stand beers, but scored lower for its hop flavor. The beers where only half of the hops were added for the hop stand and half were added for aroma ended up scoring high in both departments" This is what has me thinking that I should also do a small flavor addition and maybe even a small aroma addition in the boil along with the hopstand, instead of just relying on the hopstand and dry hops to get the flavor and aroma.

For me personally, even though I usually have plenty of time on brew day to spend the extra hour, it's just easier for me to add more dry hops than to spend the 80 and possibly, slim but possibly, take the chance of the beer getting infected. From the days of old when I first started brewing, something I read back then stuck with me and that was to get the beer chilled and yeasted (new word) ASAP. Once you get below 160 or so, the chances increase for problems.
I still like the flameout and a 20 minute hopstand with tons of dry hops for my tastes. If I give it a good 60 minute and some late additions, I think I like the flavor just fine and the dry hopping gives me some good aroma though there's never enough of that.
Chris, your personal taste is what should guide you to do what you want. Build the beer you like, then send it to me for a thorough testing.

I hear ya buddy...but this Hopstand technique really has me intrigued. And I want to give it an honest try to see if it makes a better IPA or not. If it doesn't, then I'll know for sure whether to use the technique in the future or not. If I don't do it, I'll always wonder about it.

Chris, I think the only beer I've sent you that I hop-stood was the Lager Miser IPL a while ago. For what it's worth, if you can recall how the hop flavor was in that I only used a 60-minute addition and a 30-minute hopstand at 170. Now, the amount of hops that are used is obviously going to affect the flavor so you could ramp that up or at least use this as an input into figuring out how much you want to use.

Hopefully this helps a bit:

Post Boil Volume: 3.12 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 3.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 5.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 117.6 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
3.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
0.60 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 3 56.2 IBUs
2 lbs Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 4 40.0 %
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
3 lbs Pilsner Liquid Extract [Boil for 10 min] Extract 6 60.0 %
1.00 Items Servomyces (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 7 -
0.90 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Hop 8 19.7 IBUs
0.70 oz Simcoe [11.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop 9 20.5 IBUs
0.70 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Day Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs

So...I've rewritten the recipe. It's now completely different. I adjusted the grain bill based on some of the recommendations on the "10 Factors to Making Better Hoppy Beers" by Vinnie Cilurzo (Russian River). I am using a simple grain bill of just Two Row, with a little Carapils and a touch of Crystal 20. I also added some corn sugar to dry it out. According to BeerSmith my predicted FG is 1.011, which is almost spot on what is recommended. And I've set my mash temp at 150F. And I plan to crash this for a day or two before I add the dry hops. So I've got quite a few of his tips incorporated in this one.

I am also using hops that I am very familiar with and really enjoy. I was going to do an 80 minute hopstand on the recommendation of the quote Paul added above, but I'm just not that patient, so I backed that down to a 30 minute stand. But I also added 20 minute flavor and 7 minute aroma additions too. Not sure when exactly I will get this done, but it's ready and waiting.

Without further ado, I present to you the recipe for Frontal Hopotomy (The Other Eye)

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Frontal Hopotomy (The Other Eye)
Brewer: Antler Brewing
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.84 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.29 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.077 SG
Estimated Color: 5.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 101.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 77.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 87.5 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.1 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.1 %
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 37.7 IBUs
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 60 min]( Sugar 5 6.3 %
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 3.7 IBUs
0.25 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 4.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8 5.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 7.0 min Hop 9 3.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 7.0 min Hop 10 3.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 7.0 min Hop 11 5.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30 min Hop 12 9.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [11.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30 min Hop 13 13.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30 min Hop 14 14.5 IBUs
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [ Yeast 15 -
1.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Day Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 16 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 18.75 qt of water at 163.4 F 150.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 4.95 gal water at 170.0 F

I just had a premonition so I'll make a prediction that I'll want sum a dat! All of my favorite hops blended together.
Just a question I have as part of my learning about brewing with corn sugar and not a critique.....if corn sugar dries out the beer and a low mash leads to a drier beer, why both? Wouldn't you want to mash at say, 152-154?

I see what your saying, but here's what Vinnie recommends:

"Mash Temperature - Don't mash at too warm of a temperature. To many unfermentables due to a high mash temperature will yield a sweet beer that doesn't meld well with the hops"
"Gravity (Original & Terminal) - Consider lowering your original gravity a little, this will yield a lower terminal gravity, thus, creating a drier, more drinkable beer. Finish your hoppy brews at 1.012, this is the highest finishing gravity for an IPA or Double IPA. With your Double IPA's consider using some dextrose (corn) sugar to give the yeast something simple to work on"

I am assuming that the drier you can make it, the more the hops will shine.