BeerBorg

I'm pretty sure the amount of lactic acid in a 5 gallon batch is above 10ml before it begins to influence the flavor of a beer.... If more than that is needed to lower pH then diluting your source water with RO or distilled water to reduce alkalinity is the way to go.... Unless your beer style is supposed to reproduce a beer with a high level of lacto produced by Lactobacillus bacteria that is...

So I brewed the Cream Ale this saturday and used 4 ounces of acid malt and added 3 mL of lactid acid to the mash water. My efficiency did go up. I was supposed to get 1.048 and I actually got 1.052. And I also transferred 6 gallons to the fermenter instead of 5.5 gallons. When your equipment profile is set to account for massive amounts of hops, it's always nice to do a recipe with less than an ounce of hops into it. That means I gain volume since I don't have a ton of hop sludge at the bottom of the kettle. The break material in this one was incredible too. I've never had it separate out like this one. Maybe that's because of the the low amount of hops or maybe it's because the mash pH was improved. Not sure, but it really doesn't matter much, but it was cool to see that pile of stuff on the bottom of the kettle and to watch an extremely clear transfer to the fermenter.

However....I did more research over the weekend on this water profile thingy. And although I got my mash pH problem figured by using acid malt and lactic acid, and the water calculator said I was good in most of the other categories, that doesn't mean I was good for that specific type of beer. So baby steps at correcting things, one change at a time. I got the mash pH figured, next is to better match water profiles to certain beer styles. And my research showed that I will most likely have to start diluting my water with some distilled water, then add back in some of the other stuff like gypsum, calcium choloride etc. to get to where I need to be. The fun part will be to do a tried and true recipe like my Four Point Pale Ale with these adjustments and see what happens.

Just when I thought I had my process down, it's time to do more work. And I must say, that's one of the best parts of this hobby. There's always something new to learn, and for me, that keeps things interesting. It guarantees that things won't get stale and I won't just go through the motions when making beer.

I guess the easiest thing to do is brew the beer that your water is best suited for unless that's not the kind of beer you like. I'm pretty lucky in that my beer, without any help, should make decent IPA's but just some minor tweaks and I definitely see the difference.
In a perfect world I'd buy a nice filter but that's not something I want to go into so for now, cheap water salts will be my best friend.

WallyWorld by me carries, at the front of the store by the registers, bulk RO dispenser 33 cents/gallon, 56 cents cheaper than the spring water I've been buying. I'm going to start with all RO for that price and work backwards with it, when I do mess with the water.

ScrewyBrewer wrote:I'm pretty sure the amount of lactic acid in a 5 gallon batch is above 10ml before it begins to influence the flavor of a beer.... If more than that is needed to lower pH then diluting your source water with RO or distilled water to reduce alkalinity is the way to go.... Unless your beer style is supposed to reproduce a beer with a high level of lacto produced by Lactobacillus bacteria that is...

That is a good general rule of thumb, but what I was trying to get at above is that this "depends". Just like IBUs are more noticeable in a lighter bodied beer with lower residual maltyness (PERCEIVED bitterness - IE the BU:GU scale), the same thing applies for "sourness". A more malty beer with the same amount of lactic acid will not seem as "sour" just like it would not seem as "bitter" with the same amount hops as a lighter bodied beer would. Both the sour and bitter act as a balance against residual malt sweetness.

That's why I say in a beer with a saison yeast or other highly attenuating yeast and/or low mash temperatures and/or sugar added, you will potentially start to notice the sour before you would in a more "standard" beer. There is a huge difference in residual malt sweetness if I brew a beer with something like S-05 vs. French Saison. A 30 IBU saison might seem like a ~50 IBU pale ale from a balancing standpoint because of how much more it fermented out. The same difference in perception can occur with sour.

BlackDuck wrote:So I brewed the Cream Ale this saturday and used 4 ounces of acid malt and added 3 mL of lactid acid to the mash water. My efficiency did go up. I was supposed to get 1.048 and I actually got 1.052. And I also transferred 6 gallons to the fermenter instead of 5.5 gallons. When your equipment profile is set to account for massive amounts of hops, it's always nice to do a recipe with less than an ounce of hops into it. That means I gain volume since I don't have a ton of hop sludge at the bottom of the kettle. The break material in this one was incredible too. I've never had it separate out like this one. Maybe that's because of the the low amount of hops or maybe it's because the mash pH was improved. Not sure, but it really doesn't matter much, but it was cool to see that pile of stuff on the bottom of the kettle and to watch an extremely clear transfer to the fermenter.

However....I did more research over the weekend on this water profile thingy. And although I got my mash pH problem figured by using acid malt and lactic acid, and the water calculator said I was good in most of the other categories, that doesn't mean I was good for that specific type of beer. So baby steps at correcting things, one change at a time. I got the mash pH figured, next is to better match water profiles to certain beer styles. And my research showed that I will most likely have to start diluting my water with some distilled water, then add back in some of the other stuff like gypsum, calcium choloride etc. to get to where I need to be. The fun part will be to do a tried and true recipe like my Four Point Pale Ale with these adjustments and see what happens.

Just when I thought I had my process down, it's time to do more work. And I must say, that's one of the best parts of this hobby. There's always something new to learn, and for me, that keeps things interesting. It guarantees that things won't get stale and I won't just go through the motions when making beer.

This is exactly what a lot of Water Treatment is all about. It's about experimenting, seeing or tasting results, trial and error and finding what works well for you and the brewing that you do. The increase is break material is common with proper ph. When you lock in a good mash ph, things usually carry on from there. In the boil, proper ph helps bring out fresher and less harsh hop character and limits darkening of the wort. Ph drops by a point or two during the boil as phospates are precipitated out and better cold break is seen as a result when the boil ph ends up at about 5-5.3 ph.

As far as profiles for certain types of beers, I don't really get hung up on particular profiles anymore but that's just me. My water is pretty well suited for most of the beers I brew. For hoppy beers, I might add some Gypsum, for Malty or Dark Beers I might add a little Calcium Chloride to help bring out the malt character. But most of my beers I don't do anything to the water. My water has decent Calcium content, so I carbon filter it and go from there, I adjust mash ph with Lactic Acid, acidify my sparge water so I don't pick up tannins from Alkalinity and check my boil and finished beer ph. It just lets me know everything is in line. I have found water adjustment has a very wide middle range. Meaning, many can't tell the difference between a water profile with 50ppm Chloride and 75ppm Sulfate or 25ppm Chloride and 50ppm Sulfate. Not much adjustment is needed and I haven't really found any benefit from fussing over such small additions or ppm's in a spreadsheet for each and every beer. Using my water as is, kind of brings a signature to my beers. As it does for most breweries with respect to their water.

Just boxed up my water to send in. Will post back the findings. Now to research ph meters. Have been looking at the Milwaukee 102.
Thanks for helping spend money.

I'm going to go without a pH meter for a while as I am happy with where I am for now. But when daddy has mo money, he's gonna spend it.

I will probably get one too. It will be interesting if the the pH meter will match the water calculators.

Great, I'll just wait until you guys find one you like, test it for me then I'll have some dough and grab one. Take good notes for me, will ya?

Getting my feet wet (haha) what does this tell anyone. I run my county water through a carbon filter.
Thanks in advance, right now this is all Greek to me.

pH 7.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 61
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.10
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.8/0.8

Sodium, Na 6
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 8
Magnesium, Mg 2
Total Hardness, CaCO3 28
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 1
Chloride, Cl 8
Carbonate, CO3 <1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 32
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 26
Total Phosphorus, P 0.50
Total Iron, Fe 0.02

It tells me that you should google EZ Water Calculator and have fun trying to figure it out.
Seriously, once you add your grain bill in, you can play around with the amounts of the adjustments you need to make in order to get your ph to where you need to.
After a few tries, it becomes easier even if I still don't understand what I'm doing. But I really do believe my beer is better having gone away from 5.2 and using the water salts.

Agreed. I'm in the monkey-see-monkey-do group of using EZ Calculator without really understanding all the nuances of it. It's easy to use even though it looks overwhelming at first.

Inkleg wrote:Getting my feet wet (haha) what does this tell anyone. I run my county water through a carbon filter.
Thanks in advance, right now this is all Greek to me.

pH 7.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 61
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.10
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.8/0.8

Sodium, Na 6
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 8
Magnesium, Mg 2
Total Hardness, CaCO3 28
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 1
Chloride, Cl 8
Carbonate, CO3 <1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 32
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 26
Total Phosphorus, P 0.50
Total Iron, Fe 0.02

You are working with damn near RO water. You basically have an open slate to tailor your water (very easily) to whatever you are brewing. Every component of your water is low, so adding salts to bring up your Calcium will in turn add to your Sulfates and Chloride depending on what you add.

What kind of beers do you usually brew? How do they turn out? Any problems with hazy beer, yeast that doesn't flocculate as it should, low flavor from the beer? Usually most brewers are fighting to lower carbonates, Bicarbonate, Alkalinity to brew lighter beers, as is your water is that of Pilsen where the famous soft Pilsners are known for.

In short, Calcium is the main factor to bring up if you want to start playing with your water. Calcium promotes enzyme activity in the mash, it reacts with the mash to naturally lower and stabilize the mash ph, it drives flavor stability and clarity in the finished beer. Adding calcium to you water you bring with it either Sulfates from Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum) or Chloride (from Calcium Chloride). I'm sure you already know Gypsum boosts hop character and Chloride really helps bring out the malt flavors and rounds out the beer flavor. Sodium is similar to Chloride. Magnesium isn't really a factor and can be ignored unless it's levels are excessive. So what you do and how you do it is up to you. You are on the other end of the spectrum and don't have to fight to lower the negative factors in your brewing water, you are almost starting from scratch.

So what do you like to brew, what do you want out of your beers, anything you would like to change in them?

And I would suggest brewing a beer you've brewed a number of times before to see what differences you notice after adding the water salts. You will likely be surprised at what you notice.



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