@Swenocha, Roggen Goze, or what I'll probably call "Gozer"

[mashani]

Did not make this yet. No idea how it will turn out. Replacing the rye with more wheat would give you a pretty traditional beer though I think. I just am hoping the rye gives is a bit more complexity and "wow" factor as a pseudo-sour.

Posting so Swenocha can get a gleam of it and see if he wants to mess with it or help me tweak it. This is with acidulated malt, although I've considered doing it as a sour mash, but haven't worked out the details yet. I think I want a tightly controlled sour here (so what I'm drinking is the equivalent of a "young" Goze if it was a real sour), so might just go with the acidulated malt so it's easier to tweak it later if I decide to brew it again.

This would for me be a BIAB. If done in a MLT you would want to add some rice hulls perhaps or maybe a gum/protein rest is in order here. I might do that even BIAB - I have not decided if I want to bother with it or not, it just really depends on how light bodied and clear you want the beer to be really, but with all the wheat and rye it might be useful. It's already a beer I can only brew on a special (as in not busy) day for me as is, so who knows, I might do it.

This is 2.5 gallon WIP recipe. I figure even if single infusion a 75 minute mash. 90 minute boil. Target volumes accordingly.

1.50# Pilsner Malt
1.75# Wheat Malt
0.75# Rye Malt
0.75# Acidulated Malt
1/4oz Tettnanger or such @60 - to get around 6-8 IBUs. Doesn't need more IBUs because of sour.
1/2oz crushed coriander Seed @10
1/3oz kosher sea salt @10

I think I'll use my washed WLP029 for this. I think that will be the perfect yeast.

I'm going for enough sour to notice but not overpower, enough salt to notice, but not overpower, so the rye can fill in the rest. I might bump the acidulated malt up to 1#. Salt could go up too for some people, but I'm wary of it, as my water is mineraly to begin with and also as I am putting rye in here too. Maybe I toss in a pinch of gypsum instead to get everything to "pop". If I was to increase the acidulated malt for more sour I might use even less hops or shorten the bittering boil to 45 minutes to reduce the IBUs. There is a fine balance there. Some more sour beers like this have only 3 or 4 IBUs.

Planning on a targeting a 149ish mash temp so it's dry and light bodied if single infusion. Oven mashed BIAB for me. I'm going to get some temp fluctuation, so it will probably go a bit lower and fluctuate a bit at some point. If I do other steps, they will be on the stovetop, and it will then become an oven mash once bring it to 149. If I do other steps I'll be doing a thicker mash to begin with, as I will be doing some infusions to bring it up to volume. I might even do a decoction if I bother with the steps, because at that point why the hell not, that's not any more trouble then heating up water really and this beer is already a "blow away an entire day of Mashani's time" beer which is why it's not been brewed yet.

I will guess that BIAB style I'll get in the 1.044-1.048ish range as an OG out of this. If you are using a MLT and get better efficiency this bill might be too much, so you'd want to adjust, unless you are sure you want a > 5% abv beer.

[yankfan9]

That sounds good! I am brewing a Gose right after this semester ends on Wednesday. I got the recipe from an old BYO magazine edition. Interesting that you are using rye in it too, I'll be waiting to hear how this turns out.

For what it's worth, here is the recipe that I will be doing. Do you think I should add rice hulls? I never have before, even when brewing my witbier, but if it helps then I certainly will. Also should I lower the IBU's? I am lookin for a fairly tart beer, as most gose's I've had were pretty tart. And this recipe recommends adding the acidulated malt after the 60 min mash so as not to make the original mash ph too low.

There Gose 'Nother Semester

OG 1.050 IBU 8.3 SRM 4.7
5 lbs. White wheat malt
3.25 lbs German Pilsner malt (2 °L)
2.0 lbs. acidulated malt (2 °L) (Added after 60 min mash, let rest for additional 45 mins)
0.5 oz. Hallertau
1 tsp Irish moss or 1 Whirlfloc® tablet (15 min.)
1.0 oz ground coriander seed (10 min.)
0.75 oz (21 g) sea salt (10 min.)
Wyeast 1007 (German Ale) yeast

[russki]

This looks good! Just a couple observations - first, be careful with the salt; I've had Gose that tasted like pickle juice (too salty). Second, would it be easier to control the sour with a straight lactic acid addition vs. Acidulated Malt?

Keep us posted on this!

[swenocha]

Ohhh.... me likey this thread. I'll have to give it a thorough look-see when I have some more time and add my dos centavos. Definitely in on this... Gose has become a favorite style... Between Westbrook, Freigest, Yazoo, Verloren (Sam Adams), and a few others, I can't get enough...

[mashani]

@russki,

I never considered using straight lactic acid. Might be an idea to consider. I'd need to adjust the grain bill (more pilsner). I would guess I could actually add that post fermentation to get a very precise balance. interesting...

I believe my salt amount is conservative, but if you think it's crazy let me know. I'm trying to keep it on the lower side so that it accentuates and lets the rye flavors stand out too. I know rye isn't traditional, but I like roggenbier and me thinks rye will play nicely in this (what's better on rye then sourkraut LOL?). I'm sure salt isn't really traditional either - way back in the day I'm sure it wasn't really just salt, it was just really minerally local water that tasted "salty" I'd think.

@Yankfan9, good point about the acidulated malt, so yeah, even more mash time is in order... I'm going to need to rename this beer "hammer mashani's time".

RE: Rice hulls, it depends on if you get stuck mashes using wheat. If you never have had a stuck mash making a 50-60% wheat beer, then don't worry about it. BIAB prevents this pretty much, but in a MLT it can happen.

RE: IBUs it depends on you really. I don't know what mash temps that recipe called for. I'm planning on mashing this low and getting a highly fermentable wort. So not much residual to balance the bitter/sour combo. Your not going to get too much more if any more IBUs from 1/2oz of Halleratu @60 in your beer then I am in mine as yours is a 5 gallon batch and mine is 2.5. At least not if you use the hops I buy. A bit more sour like you have there will likely be closer to a bottled version so you may very well like it better. Yours is going to be saltier then mine too most likely.

I don't know if you've ever been in a Belgian or German pub where you can get a really fresh low abv "real" sour, and I mean *really fresh* like right out of the cask - carbed and consumed a week or two from when it comes out of the fermenter, which means it's only some weeks or a month old, I don't think ever more then 2... So the sour bugs have not fully eaten everything they have, and have not really made the full amount of sourness they can. That's more like what I'm going for, which is why I'm trying to keep the sour a bit more controlled. You can't do that in a bottled "real" sour (with live bugs) or you get gushers or bombs. So bottled sours tend to be... well... more sour.

But more sour is good on a hot summer day too, and I'm sure your recipe will turn out tasty so brew it how you wish!

@Swen, the beers you are drinking are probably a bit more sour and a bit more salty then my recipe. Probably. Maybe. I dunno. I have not had all of them. I don't think any of them are likely to have rye in them either... all wheat and pils most likely, that's traditional. (although if you want to go way back in the day they didn't have pils, and what they used would have been a less lightly kilned).

[russki]

Ohhh.... me likey this thread. I'll have to give it a thorough look-see when I have some more time and add my dos centavos. Definitely in on this... Gose has become a favorite style... Between Westbrook, Freigest, Yazoo, Verloren (Sam Adams), and a few others, I can't get enough...

Of these, I've only had Verloren, and to me, it tasted nothing like a Gose... More of a stronger wit. I'd be curious to know what commercial Gose you liked the best.

[russki]

@russki,

I never considered using straight lactic acid. Might be an idea to consider. I'd need to adjust the grain bill (more pilsner). I would guess I could actually add that post fermentation to get a very precise balance. interesting...

I believe my salt amount is conservative, but if you think it's crazy let me know. I'm trying to keep it on the lower side so that it accentuates and lets the rye flavors stand out too. I know rye isn't traditional, but I like roggenbier and me thinks rye will play nicely in this (what's better on rye then sourkraut LOL?). I'm sure salt isn't really traditional either - way back in the day I'm sure it wasn't really just salt, it was just really minerally local water that tasted "salty" I'd think.

A good test of salinity would be to figure out how much salt ends up in each pint, then dissolve that amount in a bit of water, add to a glass of similar gravity beer and see how salty it ends up tasting. Salt is one of those things that's impossible to remove once added, and can certainly ruin a batch. I know a friend of mine ended up using his Gose for cooking cause it came out way to salty.

I think your salt addition is not excessive, but better safe than sorry!

[swenocha]

Ohhh.... me likey this thread. I'll have to give it a thorough look-see when I have some more time and add my dos centavos. Definitely in on this... Gose has become a favorite style... Between Westbrook, Freigest, Yazoo, Verloren (Sam Adams), and a few others, I can't get enough...

Of these, I've only had Verloren, and to me, it tasted nothing like a Gose... More of a stronger wit. I'd be curious to know what commercial Gose you liked the best.

I'd agree on the Verloren. It's pretty tame in comparison to other gose, but it was the first (I think) that I tried and led me to the others. Westbrook is my current favorite. I quite like the Freigest as well.

[yankfan9]

@Swenocha - My favorite Gose would have to be Döllnitzer Ritterguts Gose, followed by Leipziger Gose. I will have to see if I can get my hands on the Westbrook one.

@Mashani - I actually planned on kegging this one, so that I can bottle my Brown Ale and Porter that are next up after this one. Do you think after I transfer it to the keg, I just let it sit for maybe two weeks then force carb it and it should be ready? (still fairly new to kegging) Or would this beer really benefit from being bottled, and I should keg either the brown or porter instead? With regards to the mash temp, I also planned on mashing lower, probably 150.

[mashani]

I'd keg it if I had a keg. I see no reason that it won't be good to drink right away.

[yankfan9]

Good news, thanks

[yankfan9]

Brewed my Gose today. Everything went well, and I actually got an OG of 1.054 instead of the projected 1.050. One question though.. Should I be able to detect any sourness yet? When I tasted my gravity sample I tasted no sourness at all.. Never having used acidulated malt before I don't know if this is normal or not. On a side not, I had Westbrook Gose (thanks Swenocha!) and it was delicious. Might actually be my favorite now

[mashani]

Did you follow the BYO recipe? I would not expect you to taste *sour!* like your expecting the real beer to be, but more like something "sweet and sour" like Chinese food LOL. Because it's sweet wort at this point. That's the tricky part about judging a sour mash too, you have to get a "feel" for what it will be like when it's fermented out, I don't know of a way to really describe it except you have to "learn" it by experience, or measure the PH and learn what that relates to as a final result. But that's yeast (attenuation) and OG dependent too... so... its tricky.

My advice would be to not stress about it and wait and see. If it's not sour enough when done for your liking, then next time use more acidulated malt, or maybe mash it a bit longer.

[yankfan9]

Yes I followed the BYO recipe. I mashed at 150 for 1 hour, then added the 2 lbs of acidulated malt and mashed for 45 more minutes. When I checked the temp when the mash was finally done, it had dropped to 145 degrees. I think since its winter out and really cold the temp must have dropped when I added the acidulated malt and stirred it in real good. Would this be a reason I couldn't detect any sour? Really I am not too worried about it, just curious. I'm sure after fermentation it will taste different, hopefully with some sour to it. If not, it will still be a very nice beer!

[mashani]

Yes I followed the BYO recipe. I mashed at 150 for 1 hour, then added the 2 lbs of acidulated malt and mashed for 45 more minutes. When I checked the temp when the mash was finally done, it had dropped to 145 degrees. I think since its winter out and really cold the temp must have dropped when I added the acidulated malt and stirred it in real good. Would this be a reason I couldn't detect any sour? Really I am not too worried about it, just curious. I'm sure after fermentation it will taste different, hopefully with some sour to it. If not, it will still be a very nice beer!

145 is still a "working" sugar producing enzyme mash temp, it just will produce more fermentable sugars for a lighter bodied final result. If anything as a final result it should give you more sour since more sugar should ferment out. At least I would think so.