BeerBorg

We joke about what noobs ask, things like "if I stick a rusty screw in my beer will that raise ABV"?

Well, read this post: http://community.mrbeer.com/community/d ... ce-day-one

"I know I shouldn't, but I did and got sick, so don't do what I did".

Wow.

Yeah, that's scary. From someone who should have known better no less.

Now that guy right there I have no doubt the he texts while driving, tries to pet a snarling dog, buys 20 lottery tickets to improve his chances and lunches on the sushi from the corner gas station.

One thing I learned from working in a hospital ER is to never underestimate the stupidity of the human race!

We all do stupid stuff!

OK, someone has to say it... You can't fix stupid!!!

Darwin Award candidate.

I mean, that's just pants-on-head stupid.

I am feeling a little bad about all this talk of stupid. I wouldn't want to discourage them from asking questions here. They obviously could use the help.

" I've worked in the food industry for years and I know using swollen or dented cans is dangerous. The seven cans I bought were all swollen but not dented. They were also between 6-7 years old. I don't know why I went ahead and used them, stupidity? "

I was just agreeing with the feller....

We get a lot of questions here, and I think they are all handled in an encouraging manner...

People have asked about using dented or swollen cans. If they ask ahead of time, we usually just tell 'em, "better safe than sorry". But if they don't ask, and, against their own better judgment, go ahead and use them, well, I think that kinda qualifies as stupid behavior.

Not saying that person is stupid. But even smart people can make stupid decisions.

mtsoxfan wrote:OK, someone has to say it... You can't fix stupid!!!

not even with duct tape!

While I don't disagree that brewing with old dented cans that are swollen and "hiss" when opened, he probably didn't get botulism as claimed.

There was a discussion about this on homebrewtalk which culminated in the following post by a guy who runs a LHBS:

I wrote to the folks at Munton's, one of the largest manufacturers of malt extract in the world. I inquired about swollen cans of malt extract. Here's his response :
"Hello Scott, the Maillard reaction is definitely dependent on Time and Temperature and does give off CO2 as part of that reaction and is capable of producing enough pressure to expand the ends of the cans. This reaction will continue, all be it very slowly, at ambient temperature but is vastly accelerated if stored above 30°C, so if cans are left in direct sunlight for instance. This is not a microbial reaction but a natural phenomenon involving the natural carbohydrates and proteins within the malt extract. It is possible that Osmophyllic yeasts could cause fermentation but very unlikely due to the way we pasteurise the extract on canning. The Chlostridium Botulinum bacteria is associated with Fish, Animals and Birds and is extremely unlikely to be found in Barley Malt Extract. Regards Graham"

The Maillard reaction stuff is fine but:

Wings_Fan_In_KC wrote: The Chlostridium Botulinum bacteria is associated with Fish, Animals and Birds and is extremely unlikely to be found in Barley Malt Extract. Regards Graham"

Well...

1) That is a lie. It is a common soil bacteria. It becomes a type of spore when in conditions that it normally would not survive in and then re-awakens when it finds conditions it likes. The problem is that the spores are tough little buggers. The toxin can only be produced in anaerobic conditions with improperly acidified/boiled canned products. That is why any sort of pickled vegetable that is not properly acidified and boiled long enough and/or pressure canned for things that can not be acidified enough can give you botulism. Except for very young children or people with trashed immune systems, you won't get botulism simply from eating a bit of botulinum. If you eat raw honey you may have eaten spores of it. If you eat raw vegetables you've probably eaten it. It's not the botulinum that makes you sick, it's the toxins it produces in the right conditions.

2) Fish animals birds would be other types of food poisoning more likely.

3) That said - It is destroyed by the brewing/fermentation process. The toxin itself is destroyed by heat. The ph of the fermented wort and the 2%+ alcohol levels produced will take out any spores. It's more or less impossible to make beer and get botulism from it. It's also unlikely if not more or less impossible to get any other type of food poisoning from a properly fermented product that has not been compromised somehow. Which is why our ancestors fermented everything they wanted to keep. Really old school fermented pickle products (kimchee - sour kraut of the real kind - etc.) were safe even though pressure canning didn't exist because they were buried in pots in the ground and left to ferment the same way with the same types of wild bacteria and yeasts a wild beer (authentic sour beers) ferment with. Same with fermented cheeses. And fermented sausages. And anything else you can ferment.

There are not any pathogenic bacteria that survive the brewing process.

Fermentation is good.

Not sure about the ph or alcohol killing those bugs but would brewing a MrB batch keep the temps high enough or long enough to do it?

The toxin should denature fully at 185F for 15 minutes. Regular boiling temps kill the bacteria. The spores need to get up to 240F to be destroyed. That's why you use "pressure canning" for a higher PH canned product. For a more acidic product (4.5< or there about) the spores will not "activate" and turn into bacteria and make toxins, so that's why a regular boil can be used for those types of pickles. This is why truly fermented pickles IE sourkraut/kimchee, and the like are also safe regardless. It's why sour kraut is sour, not just salty. Sour is good.

But anything that remains is destroyed during fermentation and/or if somehow some spores remain they can not activate IE "hatch" at the PH levels of beer. So beer in bottles is always safe from toxins being produced.

*if* there was toxin in the can and you did not heat it to 185 for 15 minutes you could be in trouble. It is very unlikely there is any in the can. That much of what that guy said is true, because in the canning and concentrating process itself should have eliminated anything that was not destroyed when the wort was produced.

But basically I would never worry about canned LME that your boil. If you have an HME and you are worried about then just simply heat it up to 190 for 15 minutes (good excuse to do a hop burst in it while you wait). But I can't imagine that any canned extract could have be processed in such a way that it's an issue regardless.