BeerBorg

Now that I am on day shift I am able to attend the Hall of Foamers meetings. It was a lot of fun and I learned some things. First off, and this will be of interest to Paul, the master brewer from our local brewpub (http://www.blindtiger.com/) was there. They had brewed up a Kolsh (their Kolsh took 1st place at the GABF last year or the year before) they had some left over, he didn't want to just throw it away so he filled 9 carboys with it. In each carboy he added a different yeast. The kolsh was a 1.048 beer so there was really nothing to get in the way of the character of the yeast. He brought 3 of those beers in. I was absolutely AMAZED tasting them side by side. You would have thought each beer had a different grain bill. One was the Belle Saison and it tasted a lot like my farmhouse ale, another was WL something or other, a Scottish ale yeast, the other was WL something or other an English ale yeast. There were no similarities between the beers at all.

Another interesting thing was he made a Czech pilsner from extracts, he was in a hurry, so he boiled hops in water for 45 minutes then dumped them in the wort for 15. He said he forgot how much more hop utilization you get out of boiling them in straight water and it came out too bitter. I always heard the opposite. This is good to know.

The club was putting together a trip to hit some breweries in Kansas City in April. They are setting up some designated drivers. They are in the St Patricks day parade and said there will be beer on the float, and a johny on the spot on it as well, all club members were invited to either ride the float or walk along side of it in the parade.

They were all really impressed with my Tasmanian Wheat. I took that as a huge complement. The brewer from the Blind Tiger kept asking me if I was sure I didn't dry hop it. I really need to send some of that to Paul.

This really is a very active and vibrant club. I think I am going to learn a lot from them and hope I have something to share with them as well.

The End

This is almost exactly what I want to do.....try beers I brewed in the past and liked but try different yeasts. Maybe not wildly different but enough to give the beer some different profiles. I was thinking of doing a 10 gallon batch, split it into 2 fermenters and using different yeast.
Thanks for the push Roger. And, sometime soon I'm really going to go to a local meeting and likely join.

Send me beer you say? Of course and I have some things you may like as well. As the Beatles sang, "we can work it out"!

Gymrat wrote:Another interesting thing was he made a Czech pilsner from extracts, he was in a hurry, so he boiled hops in water for 45 minutes then dumped them in the wort for 15. He said he forgot how much more hop utilization you get out of boiling them in straight water and it came out too bitter. I always heard the opposite. This is good to know.

I'd like to hear more about this part because, as you stated, it goes against everything that I have ever read on this topic.

Kealia wrote:

Gymrat wrote:Another interesting thing was he made a Czech pilsner from extracts, he was in a hurry, so he boiled hops in water for 45 minutes then dumped them in the wort for 15. He said he forgot how much more hop utilization you get out of boiling them in straight water and it came out too bitter. I always heard the opposite. This is good to know.

I'd like to hear more about this part because, as you stated, it goes against everything that I have ever read on this topic.

I've said before - hop utilization as we know it only pertains to what compounds are extracted at what temperatures and what ph and in any given amount of time. The isomerization we expect happens *the way we expect* at wort PH and at boiling temps and times.

Boiling hops in wort is *different* then boiling them in water because the PH is different. It does not mean nothing is extracted from them.

The concept that wort is necessary for the hop bits to "bind" to to get bitterness is unscientific crap that somehow keeps getting propagated. Isomerization is purely based on PH and temperature and time, nothing else. It will happen to some level regardless. It is not a reaction specific to wort and hops, IE a "beer thing". It's just a chemical reaction and PH, Temperature, and Time are the main factors that control it.

I believe I posted a chart on the old Mr. Beer forum somewhere that shows how different compounds in hops are extracted at different PH and temperatures. I can't find it at the moment, but I'll look. But in a nutshell more things are actually extracted in plain water then in wort. Isomerization of AA is different, but not non-existent like folks claim. Other compounds are actually extracted at much higher rates in water then if you were boiling in wort. Others less. The question becomes "do you want those more things in your beer"? The answer is more or less that it will change the way it turns out, maybe it's cool, maybe it's not, but it won't turn out like the recipe.

In this case even if not as many AA's isomerized, likely something else got extracted that normally does not in wort PH levels and it added to the perceived bitterness. Beta acids can do that in the right conditions for example. In a normal beer the Beta acids would only start to affect bitterness as the beer ages and becomes more oxidized. They are what helps keep "old ales" from becoming too sweet as the beer ages and the AA's fade. There are a lot of compounds in hops that we don't normally consider in brewing because at wort PH they don't do much. But at water PH they may.

The PH thing is also why late extract addition methods are better for partial volume boil hop utilization when mimicking an AG recipe. The 1.03-.1.04 gravity range tends to gives the closest proximity of the PH of the initial boil volume of a full volume boil for a "normal" full volume beer of higher post boil OG for many beers. But you should not take the 1.03-1.04 as gospel, if you are brewing a low OG beer, then 1.02 might be better... a high OG beer 1.05 or more might be better.

EDIT: I may as well say this here too since I'm being all soapboxie and heretical...

The idea that dry hops add no flavor is crap. They do. Not as much as in a boil, but something is always extracted from them. Put hops in some water and walk away for 3 days then taste the water? Does it taste like water? No. Alcohol adds to this effect, alcohol is a nice alternative solvent to water and extracts other things water will not. IE put hops in vodka for 3 days and taste it.

Dry hops affect flavor perception in any case because you can't totally separate taste and aroma in the human brain. Everything that goes into our mouths that has volatile oils ends up getting up into our olfactory nerves as we consume it. This affects taste perception even if we don't consider it an "aroma" because we aren't "smelling" it.

As an example, the best way to get a lot of lemon flavor from Sorachi Ace is to dry hop a ton of it. 4+oz in a 5 gallon batch will give you amazing lemon flavors. That's how Brooklyn Brewery gets that pure lemony flavor in "A Sorachi Ace" saison. It's *not* from a traditional flavor boil. A longer traditional flavor boil gives you more of a "lemon butter" kind of vibe with them. It takes more hops to get the same level of flavor, but you will get flavor. And it will be potentially a bit of a different flavor.

The idea that bittering hops add no flavor is crap. Taste any beer brewed with Pride of Ringwood as the bittering hop and tell me it has no taste. This is why bittering hops matter, and if you are trying to brew authentic German beers for example you *need* to use a German bittering hop or one derived from them (ie magnum), and not something like simcoe.

The idea that there is nothing left in your hops after a flavor/aroma boil and they did everything they can do for your beer is crap. Take a pinch out of your hop sack and taste it. Does it taste like nothing? NO. It tastes like hops. There is still plenty of goodness in them. Throw them in your fermenter and be rewarded with more flavor.

This is why Mr. Beers stupid instructions work to make different beers even though they aren't doing a real hop boil.

It's not that it won't work. It might not work as efficiently. But it will still work to some extent.

You have to always remember a lot of home brew gospel is based on commercial brewing techniques. That means "get the most out of the least to get what you want". It's based on cost factors, not absolutes.

What will happen however is if you don't follow the recipe you won't get the recipes results exactly. The differences may just be subtle, but there will be differences.

Anyways, I'll step off the soap box and shut up now LOL.

+1 Dave...

Great insight that many may not be aware of!

Thanks Mashani for that great explanation from your soapbox. You can get up there anytime you like in my book. Since I do only 10 minute hop boils usually, I can confirm that you do get bitterness out of a 'taste' boil.

Monty

Mashani, I for one absolutely love it when you get on your soapbox and hope you never decide to get off of it for good.

Now could you please re-post this info in the hops section so it doesn't get lost?