BeerBorg

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte ... cript.html

One of the most radical, innovative, and dangerous (yes, I said dangerous) documents in the history of the world. Orchestrated by a collection of some of the bravest, most intelligent people ever gathered in one place at one time. Our country has a remarkable origin. I doubt if any other time, place, or group of people could have done what these incredible individuals did.

One of the greatest thrills I've experienced was touring Independence Hall in Philadelphia and seeing the room where Adams, Hamilton, Franklin, Jefferson, and the rest of the Founders planned and committed treason against the Crown of Britain. If you get a chance to see it, please go. It's awe-inspiring.

Have a safe, happy, and grateful Independence Day, my brothers and sisters.

Thanks Dave, same to you!
I can't remember where I read or heard, long ago, that our revolution was one of the few successful, sustainable ones. Often the overthrow of a monarchy is followed by chaos or dictatorship. God Bless America!

Our country was founded on ideas; a grand experiment that I am very proud of!

John Sand wrote:Thanks Dave, same to you!
I can't remember where I read or heard, long ago, that our revolution was one of the few successful, sustainable ones. Often the overthrow of a monarchy is followed by chaos or dictatorship. God Bless America!

The really cool and amazing thing is that the United States of America has the oldest form of government in existence today. Every other country in the world has changed it's form of government at least once in the past two hundred years.

Oh. And edit to add...

We're also celebrating my wedding anniversary too.

Chuck N wrote:

John Sand wrote:Thanks Dave, same to you!
I can't remember where I read or heard, long ago, that our revolution was one of the few successful, sustainable ones. Often the overthrow of a monarchy is followed by chaos or dictatorship. God Bless America!

The really cool and amazing thing is that the United States of America has the oldest form of government in existence today. Every other country in the world has changed it's form of government at least once in the past two hundred years.

Oh. And edit to add...

We're also celebrating my wedding anniversary too.

Congrats. ChuckN. How many years you been hitched?

seven years. This is the second time around for both of us. The first times for each of us was just "practicing".

Congrats Chuck... My wife and I celebrated out 6th on the 1st.

Chuck N wrote:seven years. This is the second time around for both of us. The first times for each of us was just "practicing".

Second time for me and swmbo also.

FedoraDave wrote:Our country has a remarkable origin. I doubt if any other time, place, or group of people could have done what these incredible individuals did.

I wholeheartedly agree!

Certainly, their current-day successors couldn't do it. I shudder to think what today's "leaders" would come up with if given the chance to start from scratch. #charliefox

PS - I'm not at all looking to turn this thread in the political direction. Just pointing out, by way of comparison, how truly remarkable (as Dave correctly put it) the founding of our nation really is!

Crazy Climber wrote:

FedoraDave wrote:Our country has a remarkable origin. I doubt if any other time, place, or group of people could have done what these incredible individuals did.

I wholeheartedly agree!

Certainly, their current-day successors couldn't do it. I shudder to think what today's "leaders" would come up with if given the chance to start from scratch. #charliefox

PS - I'm not at all looking to turn this thread in the political direction. Just pointing out, by way of comparison, how truly remarkable (as Dave correctly put it) the founding of our nation really is!

All true but how do you fix the the bottomless swamp we are in? I have come to the conclusion that We The People are again in need of a party!! Too many of our elected Officials see this as a career path. Time to make some much needed changes. No no cost health care for life!! If you are an incumbent you should be voted out of office. 2 term limit from the lowest to the highest position. Back to serving because it is the greatest honor. Just look the incumbent record more time spent trying to get reelected very little time working

~~BOBH

"The really cool and amazing thing is that the United States of America has the oldest form of government in existence today. Every other country in the world has changed it's form of government at least once in the past two hundred years."


Parliament, the house of commons, the house of lords and the monarchy predate our government. it hasn't changed that much either in centuries. our government has undergone many changes from the party system to ammendments to the constitution. we've also seen a rift in unity where the north and south were at one time murdering each other over states rights. all nations change and grow. if they don't , they stagnate and fall. if our nation remained in its original form, you would still have a nation of rich farm owners who kept slaves that counted as one third of a human... and women would be subservient to men. the united states would be a collection of colonies on the eastern shore. each with its own currency.

what made America work is that it is a dynamic nation.. a diverse nation that adapts to the times and for that reason alone is not afraid to change itself. it is that courage to grow that has given us a black president (whether one likes him or not) and female supreme court justices... a female secretary of state (at one time).

Gott des Bieres wrote:

Crazy Climber wrote:

FedoraDave wrote:Our country has a remarkable origin. I doubt if any other time, place, or group of people could have done what these incredible individuals did.

I wholeheartedly agree!

Certainly, their current-day successors couldn't do it. I shudder to think what today's "leaders" would come up with if given the chance to start from scratch. #charliefox

PS - I'm not at all looking to turn this thread in the political direction. Just pointing out, by way of comparison, how truly remarkable (as Dave correctly put it) the founding of our nation really is!

All true but how do you fix the the bottomless swamp we are in? I have come to the conclusion that We The People are again in need of a party!! Too many of our elected Officials see this as a career path. Time to make some much needed changes. No no cost health care for life!! If you are an incumbent you should be voted out of office. 2 term limit from the lowest to the highest position. Back to serving because it is the greatest honor. Just look the incumbent record more time spent trying to get reelected very little time working

~~BOBH

Not 2 term but term limits yes. If the pres. gets 8 years that sounds fair for congress. However no benefits follow leaving the office and no retirement should be paid.

Honestly the best way to fix our government IMHO would be to support the proposed constitutional amendment that totally would remove "Corporations are People" and in effect "Money = Free Speech" from being an issue - yes there are a few initiatives like that floating around. That would instantly remove corporations from funding candidates that help them - these are both democrats and republicans, this initiative isn't about party politics, it's about fixing the money problem which is what lets shitty incumbents remain incumbents without having to resort to term limits. Back when our government was in the early days, there was not mega corp mass media that could be used to support what amounts to propaganda and FUD spread by both parties by pumping money into it, and therefor squelching the "little guys". Government was much more personal and local. Candidates needed to hold their own, and didn't get the benefit of 3rd parties filling peoples minds with FUD 24x7 to influence them.

In general I like President Regan, but personally think one of the worst things he did was media deregulation when it came to electoral issues. Honest media should always provide equal access to all candidates regardless of party affiliation, regardless of wealth, regardless of perceived chances to win - and let them all speak their minds. Because to fix the system we need all perspectives, not just the ones that come from canned/pre-selected sources. Right now they simply can and do squelch the ones who can't afford to pay them enough and/or who their corporate bosses/funders/backers don't personally like.

EDIT: I see term limits as a "fake fix" for this very issue as above. Yes it gets rid of the current baggage, but it does nothing from preventing equally offensive replacement baggage from being installed in their place. Because the folks who fund the process do not want other types in the mix, they want the ones that do what they want them to do. Not necessarily what you or I want them to do.

And there is some benefit to having folks who have been there a while - who are honest hard working folks who work for their constituents for real - IE not corporate puppets - to be there to mentor the new folks.