BeerBorg

Had someone come out to do some general maintenance on the system yesterday in preperation for winter and was told my cooling system was leaking frion and had a bunch of other issues. The system is 10-12 years old so we were under the impression it was going to need replacement in the next few years. Did not think it would be 2 months after we moved in. Anyone have any experience we recently purchasing an HVAC system or recommend a certain brand?

We have a 3 level townhouse. I have 2 quotes from different companies. 1 that primarily uses Carrier and the other that uses Trann.

Thoughts?

I had to replace two units on my mother's house. I tried to get 5 estimates as many of them only use 1 brand. I also found lazy contractors, ones that didn't follow my quote requirements, one where the owner was now in prison, his wife took over the business, hired a manager to run it, but the staff said "he's only a consultant" and the salesperson that quoted the system's cell phone answered "Mary's bakery" - his side business. Some of these guys use independent reps to do quotes. Be leery of that. The owner of the installer we selected a) did the quote and b) was on site during the install. Only issue we had was that his guys wired the thermostats up backwards because he forgot to tell them that the wires in the garage were wrong. So for a few days there was some confusion until he came out and redid the wires.

For a 3 level townhouse, having multiple systems/zones would be beneficial as heat rises.

It is extremely important to ensure that the system(s) are sized properly. Too big a system will not properly cool or remove moisture. There are methods mentioned in the info below.

It's also important to properly pair the indoor and outside units properly for best efficiency. It is my understanding that getting a top efficiency unit (versus a slightly lower efficiency unit) really never pays off and that many fail sooner than lower efficiency units.

Any Federal tax credit went away in 2013, but was minimal anyway.

I found that the Costco program that gives money back on Lennox systems requires you to a) buy units that cost a lot more than you want to spend and b) buy thermostats that are much, much more expensive than you want, thereby negating any "savings". In my mother's case, certain systems would not fit in the installation area. She ended up with Rheem which is what she had prior. We went with an installer that had great BBB ratings, nothing negative in our online search, and provided a 5 year warranty on labor because he says the units should not need any.

As far as maintenance on these units, any good installer will tell you that you need none. My mother lives in Florida. Besides pouring bleach down the pan drain pipe regularly to stop the growth of algae, there is nothing that needs to be done. Keep the outside unit clear of brush, hose it once in a while, and change your filters.

Hope this helps.

Here's part of the letter I emailed for companies to provide quotes (they went to her house, but emailed me the quotes), perhaps it will be helpful to you:

We desire to obtain written estimates for replacement of both air conditioning systems.

We are interested in getting estimates for a RANGE OF OPTIONS. You should include an estimate for the LEAST EXPENSIVE option as well as the OPTION THAT YOU RECOMMEND and the reasoning why you recommend it. We will be comparing costs vs. expected savings to see the expected breakeven period for “higher efficiency” units as compared to “lower efficiency” units. We will take into account utility company rebates and manufacturer rebates, so please specify those. Please feel free to give estimates for more than one manufacturer.

In your estimates, be clear to identify every component that you are installing and every option that you are including, with costs broken out. For example, if you recommend an electronic air cleaner, identify the costs and the benefits in the proposal so we can include or exclude it as we see fit. If there are savings from an option, be sure to identify them along with the costs. For example, “Utility company will give you $300 if you spend $150 on this option”, or “the manufacturer will only give you the $xxx rebate if you install this option”. Make sure that every component is identified by manufacturer and model number so that we can find information on them via the internet. If a manufacturer’s rebate expires on a certain date, please identify that. Please also ensure that you tell us if they always have a rebate in place every year.

PLEASE NOTE – we are NOT interested in fancy, hard to use, thermostats. The current thermostats with a sliding lever to change temperature have worked just fine. We do NOT WANT programmable thermostats that require batteries be changed or programming be changed. If you want to include those, then include also a commitment to come and replace the batteries and reprogram the units AS NEEDED for the life of the system. We do not want any internet connectivity either. If you are recommending new thermostats, please make sure they are included in your list of components (specific model) and WHY we need to replace what we now have. Digital thermostats, without programming, are fine if that’s what is needed.

Please properly size the replacement units as if you were installing systems for the first time. Do NOT rely on an assumption that the existing units are properly sized. Make sure you evaluate the current systems circulation to ensure that they are properly sized for the areas they cover and indicate in writing how you accomplished this (note – speaking to the owner is not adequate, we wish you to professionally evaluate the circulation in each room). If all you do is simply look at the installed units and provide an estimate for the same sized units without assessing the proper fit, you will likely not be selected for the job. Please ensure that the replacement components that go into the garage will fit into the space that exists. Make sure you take into account the exposure of the current units outside. Indicate how you sized the new units (i.e. ACCA’s Residential Load Calculation Manual (Manual J) or other method – if other specify how). Make sure to properly size ductwork using ACCA Manual D or other method and indicate whether any ductwork needs to be changed. Please provide a printout of all calculations and assumptions including ductwork design.

Be sure to carefully identify ALL manufacturer warranties. Be sure to carefully identify ALL warranties that you provide, including free annual servicing, etc. Be sure to specify EXACTLY how much you charge in subsequent years to service the units annually. We will be evaluating your estimate against other companies, so you need to be complete and specific. If you charge for annual inspections of the units, specify how much.

Identify the methods of payment that you accept (check, credit card (specify American Express, Visa, MasterCard, etc.) and if any discounts are provided for any method.

Make sure to separately identify all utility company rebates, i.e. do NOT include them into a lump number, and indicate if you subtract them from what we pay you or if we get the rebates from the utility company after. If you are NOT an FPL PIC (Participating Independent Contractor) - [this is Florida Power and Lights program and only way you could get their rebates], please indicate that immediately.

How long will removal and installation take? Do you do each unit separately so the house has at least one zone of cool air?

From when we say “Go”, how long until you begin installation? We are going to select a company this week.

Please provide copies of your liability and workmen’s compensation insurance, as well as any licenses that you are required to have to install these units.

Please provide any certifications that you have that matter, i.e. “ABC Manufacturer has us as a Gold installer which means”.

Please provide at least three referrals from existing customers including one recent installation, one that is at least a year old, and one that is at least three years old.

Please indicate how your technicians are certified.

Thanks a lot Rick. I have 2 quotes already but like the idea of getting a few more as this is quite an expense. The owner of one company lives around the corner from me, i see his van pass almost every day. He came out personally and quoted me and walked home. His prices are a little higher as it is a mom/pop company but I liked the commitment and feel from him. He didn't push anything on me and gave me a quote for low end vs middle vs high. Seems any system I get at this point will be higher than what I have so I don't think I will need more more than the lower one (he labeled them as good, better, best).

They also have things called home warrenty's here which cover you if appliances or HVAC systems need repair/maintenance. We are thinking of purchasing one of those and than just waiting it out to see how much longer we can get out of this system as the funds just aren't available without rediculous financing.

Your insight has helped tremendously.

Ive been in the HVAC business since I was 12. That's a LONG time ago
Rickbeer is right about pretty much everything he said
You NEVER want to oversize the unit for THE AREA YOUR IN. (Except for possibly going up 1/2 ton on a 2 stage system if necessary. They usually only come in Even numbers
2,3,4,5 ton NO 2 1/2 for example)
Don't buy from Home Depot, Sears, Costco ...
But from an independent dealer
The only thing the retail store adds is cost
A LOT
Of the 2 units you mentioned (Carrier and TRane) Trane is by far a better system
Carrier would be among the last units I would consider
Get a true Variable speed air handler no matter what type system you get (You didn't mention if it is Heat Pump, Gas heat? Split system or package?}
If you get a higher efficiency unit get a 2 Stage system, will make a huge difference compared to the same efficiency 1 stage system
The new unit is going to be an R410 system, The refrigerant lines will almost deffinately need to be replaced (there are VERY few exceptions)
If your dealer isn't replacing them find out why.
Have your duct system inspected by EVERY dealer that quotes the job
Don't install a new system and a crappy duct system

dbrowning wrote:Rickbeer is right about pretty much everything he said

My wife still hasn't learned this after 35+ years....

D_Rabbit wrote:They also have things called home warrenty's here which cover you if appliances or HVAC systems need repair/maintenance. We are thinking of purchasing one of those and than just waiting it out to see how much longer we can get out of this system as the funds just aren't available without rediculous financing.

Your insight has helped tremendously.

Glad to help. Note that LEGALLY if your system is leaking that they can only put so much freon into a system before they violate the law. And they will either inspect things before covering you or say you can't make a claim for X days. My mother had one of those warranties for decades because her idiot boyfriend who cannot change a lightbulb (true) told her to get one. She paid in excess of $20,000 over the years and got two free water heaters, a few toilet flap changes, and one garbage disposal fix in addition to the A/C systems. Finally they refused to service the A/C systems so she got the new ones (we got another 18 months out of them before that happened) and then did not renew the contract.


By the way, they violated the law in recharging the system numerous times, never documenting anything which is a violation of federal law with freon.

I like the idea of having the neighbour do it if his prices are in the ballpark. He knows you can find him easily and would not want the word to get out that he does subpar work. I am looking at my wife's neighbour three houses down to do her roof before/if we sell for just that reason. He also mentioned that if small thing happen like shingles blowing off during a heavy storm or whatever that he would wander by and take care of it for free.

Just remember that when you do business with friends and/or neighbors you can ruin the relationship if you have to push them or take legal action.

We did a roof a few years back on the in-law's house because my (at the time) nearly 90 year old father in-law wouldn't stop going on the roof after a storm to check it. Ended up doing it with a relative AFTER getting 5 estimates. He beat them, he was also on the manufacturer's website as a top installer, he met all my requirements (similar the A/C list), etc. He also understood that if things did not go well I would not hesitate to take legal action regardless of the relative situation, and he agreed to that.

Blown off shingles after a storm are covered under the warranty from the manufacturer. Also, most roof warranties are NOT transferrable in the event of a change of ownership, but some are transferrable once. If you want to be able to say "brand new roof with an x year warranty", that would be of interest.

It is a gas system browning. Good to know about home depot as they are the people that I set up the inspection/maintenance through. I didn't get that warm fuzzy feeling from them when he was here. I got that, this feels like they are trying to pull one over on me feeling.

I just had another company come out today and gave me a quote on the Bryant system. Either the Model 310 or 315 system. I will most likely go with these guys as I liked the person who came out. Owner of the company and very knowledgeable. Will most likely go with the 315 as it is the 2 stage system variable speed and it is only about $900 more than the basic model. The AC system is a 13 seer unit which is all I think we really need as at this moment we have a 10 seer.

thanks for the help and input.

Just FYI .... the Bryant unit IS a Carrirer
And Im pretty sure they don't have a 2 stage system that is less than 17 SEER

Browning,
My neighbor noticed all the HVAC traffic coming through to my door. I completely forgot he co-owns an HVAC company too. I've seen his truck but he stopped parking it at his home so I forgot. He came over and gave me some quotes for a few different brands. One is the Payne 16 seer 1 stage gas furnace for $6200 and the other is Amana 2 stage variable, 16 seer for $6800. Any word on those brands?

Consumer Reports has ratings on brands. http://consumerreports.org/cro/central- ... -guide.htm You have to pay for a month or figure out which issue has the article and get it at the library.

D_Rabbit wrote:Browning,
My neighbor noticed all the HVAC traffic coming through to my door. I completely forgot he co-owns an HVAC company too. I've seen his truck but he stopped parking it at his home so I forgot. He came over and gave me some quotes for a few different brands. One is the Payne 16 seer 1 stage gas furnace for $6200 and the other is Amana 2 stage variable, 16 seer for $6800. Any word on those brands?

Payne is also Carrier.

That 2 Stage 16 seer Amana is what I put upstairs in my house about 3 months ago and will replace the downstairs in a couple of weeks with the same unit
What size unit is it?

About a year or so before selling our former house I shelled out $7000, for a new furnace and air conditioning condenser and evaporator. The installer sized the new unit based on the btu rating of the old furnace and the tonnage of the old air conditioning system. Seems our old house had the largest residential sized central air unit made by anyone. Another one of the reasons we sold and bought something smaller once the kids moved out. The installer was a friend of the family and did a really good job, the new unit looked like it grew there right where the old one used to be and it worked perfectly. The old unit lasted us 20 years, and a bit of silicone the last summer to fix a leaky condensate drain in the A coil, but the new unit's SEER rating was a lot more efficient.