BeerBorg

I found this interesting....http://brulosophy.com/2016/01/04/extrac ... t-results/

Very interesting read, thanks berry

I agree with it completely.
One thing I will say. When I was extract brewing I could make two beers with the same recipe and they would come out tasting quite a bit different. I have not had that experience with all grain brewing. I think it is because the extract may be a little different from batch to batch. And with liquid extract age absolutely has an effect.
You can make damn good beer with extract. And it is a lot less time consuming. But I feel I have so much more control with all grain. Plus it is quite a bit cheaper.

And AG is more flexible. I am with you gymrat, the main reason I got away from extract was due to not being able to get fresh extract. I know some people can , but I can't without spending a bunch of money. I like the price of grain I can get, I buy it from a brewery, so it is fresh. I have had some problems with some specialty grains having worms, but that is rare.

I think a better comparison would be fresh bulk LME vs a plastic container of Breiss, but just guessing.

I think freshness has a lot to do with it. My LHBS gets LME in 55 gallon drums. If I buy at least 36 lbs (maybe 33, but I generally buy it in 6 lb increments), it's $2/lb. They usually go through it pretty fast (I often get mine within a few days of their opening a new barrel). One time, I got some at the tail end of a barrel, and there was a definite difference in color.

I also think that doing a partial/mini mash helps A LOT. Even doing steeping grains helps a fair amount. Basically, doing anything that adds fresh grains also adds fresh flavor.

RickBeer wrote:I think a better comparison would be fresh bulk LME vs a plastic container of Breiss, but just guessing.

It's good that his experiment is about what's different vs. better or worse, because that's how I'd describe it too. I do both AG and extract and mixes of the two as you all know. And what RickBeer guesses is accurate in my experience. Fresh extract is less "different" then old extract. Fresh matters. I use the MoreBeer pils all the time to save 2+ hours on a brew day. But I would not do it if I didn't like the results a lot.

That said, some Maillard reaction is impossible to not have when it is extract regardless of age. But it's not as big of a difference as in that batch he brewed in this experiment as if it was fresh.

The bulk Pilsner extract I get from MoreBeer ferments out in the Belgians I make with it just like I mashed pilsner around 149-150 if I used it right away or put it in the fridge for storage as soon as I get it. It is highly fermentable, and doesn't end up with a higher SG/FG unless my OG is higher, or unless I mash the pils closer to 147. It is very light in color. It's very consistent in quality. It's not as light as fresh mashed pils, but light enough and *no where* near as much of a difference as shown in that experiments photos. It has better flavor then the bags of dried pilsner that were used in that experiment (I know because I've used it). It is lighter colored, more fermentable, and better flavored then the pilsner extract that came in that jar that was used in the experiment, even though it is actually the same stuff (I know because I've used it too). Why? Because that jarred stuff is almost always somewhere between middle-aged and god-knows-how-old... It had time for more Maillard reaction to happen. And that's what makes it so variable. The dried pils stuff doesn't change so much over time, but to me it tastes more one-noted and less "grainy" then AG or the fresh liquid extract.

I won't say that it tastes the same as if I mashed some good Belgian Pils, because it does not. But the difference is minor, and doesn't make the beer that much better on its own that I care. If I was comping against some big boys, I might go for the Belgian Pils. But for my Belgian lawnmower beer... naah.

Also for whatever it is worth, in his experiment #2, he steeped Munich along with the crystal, where in the AG batch it was all mashed together. This affects ppg, fermentability, it affects flavor, it's simply not the same. The newfangled idea of 20 minute mash does NOT apply to Munich + Crystal. Munich can barely self convert, and it takes a long time. It would be a more valid comparison to mash some maris otter along with the munich and crystal, and then top up with some extract, to get the same "stuff" out of the Munich+Crystal. Of course that doesn't save time like all extract. But it does allow brewing with smaller equipment.

In experiment #1 (Maris Otter) - where it seems that most of the folks actually liked the extract batch better for some reason - I would mention that he isn't comparing the *same kind* of it that was used to make the extract to his AG beer. The floor malted stuff he used is what they call "Gleneagle", and it is produced in a very different manner then the regular Crisp that is used in the extract, which is produced in a more modern manner. The Gleneagle has more biscuit/nutty character (all of the floor malted European grains also have more character then their modern equivalents IMHO). It's the "premium" stuff. So, even if the extract was perfectly the same, it would not be a completely valid comparison. I do find it interesting that folks liked the Maris Otter extract version made with the cheaper stuff better then the Gleneagle all grain version. But that might simply be because of how simple the beers were, so the bit of Maillard reaction and/or kettle caramalization must have given it some extra malty character as if a bit of crystal was added.

Also in both cases, the hop schedule was not adjusted for his late extract addition method. You have to base your hop additions on the SG of the wort (especially bittering hops) during the long boil to get the same bittering results. So hop character would not be the same as his AG batch would have had a higher SG for more then half his boil duration but had identical hop additions.

Also I don't see OG's posted, only FGs. So I don't know how comparing FGs is even valid in that case. Maybe they were the same. I dunno. But I don't see how they could be besides pure luck because mashing efficiency is brew house/equipment specific. EDIT: I do see one for the #1 actually, it appears they were the same in that case luckily.

In any case, there are basically a lot more variables in play here then simply the extract as far as what might make the beers "different". The extract is part of it. But there is more too.

And yes, I agree AG gives more control regardless.

The reason I like the fresh bulk Pils so much in my Belgians is that I don't need that much more control in them. They are pretty much nothing but Pils, candi sugar, and yeast. I use a slightly higher proportion of candi sugar to make up for the 149-150ish vs 147ish mash temp difference. And usually I'm using it when it's freaking hot and I don't feel like oven mashing for 90 minutes and then boiling for 90 minutes and increasing my freaking hottedness. Most of the character comes from the yeast, temperature of fermentation, and candi sugar if it's anything but clear.

But I would *not* use the jarred stuff, or the dried stuff. I've found the sweet spot with the fresh bulk stuff, and like Gymrat said, I'd get less consistent results if I didn't use a consistent product. And the canned stuff is not going to be consistent. The canned stuff would add a sweetness I don't want (and a somewhat random amount of it). The fresh bulk stuff, it's not so much as to be "noticeable" when I'm drinking it, especially since I bump the sugar up a bit. And I find it to be consistent. But I buy it fresh, and use it right away or put it in the fridge. You can even freeze it I'm sure.

Anyways those are my random thoughts.

EDIT: Oh and MoreBeer actually stopped selling that Maris Otter extract it seems. Apparently they could not turn it around fast enough to make them happy. They had it on sale for a long while, and they never do that. So it must not have been turning over fast enough for them (which affects freshness). Northern still sells it. I think it's the same stuff. Maybe they turn it around better or have a popular recipe kit that uses it.

One thing I started doing with extract batches when I was making them was adding no more than 2 lbs of extract per gallon of water. Any remainder was added at the end of the boil. That both lightened up the color of my beers and eliminated a lot of overboiled flavors.

For me, extract beers seem to take longer to carb and need longer aging than AG.

I wonder if beer aged 3 or 4 months would get the same responses.

mashani wrote: Anyways those are my random thoughts.

Thanks Dave, now I'm going to have to spend the next week digesting the information you just posted

The_Professor wrote: For me, extract beers seem to take longer to carb and need longer aging than AG.

FWIW, everything I've made with fresh stuff from MoreBeer is good to go at 3 weeks in the bottle if I have good conditioning temps, unless it's a style that needs long aging just to blend and be right. I don't generally try anything sooner then that since I'm priming with sugar vs. force carbing and the little fermentation of that sugar makes off flavors that take some time to clean up. IE at 2 weeks I can taste acetaldehyde sometimes, so I just don't bother with trying anything that soon. Hop character and yeast esters do change (mellow/blend better) between 3-4 weeks though. But that is true in my AG beers too.

Best advice I can give anyone who buys fresh extract, is if you can, and your not going to use it right away, is to put it in your fridge. Makes a world of difference if you are using it some months later. Would be hard to do if you bought a whole drum of it though...

berryman wrote:

mashani wrote: Anyways those are my random thoughts.

Thanks Dave, now I'm going to have to spend the next week digesting the information you just posted

Happy to help LOL.

I've been almost 100% AG the last few years. This fall I did a DME Pilsner. The boil didn't smell the same. It wasn't bad and neither was the beer, but it was very noticeably a different smell right from the start.

Think canned soup or dehydrated soup vs fresh homemade. Fresher canned or dehydrated soup would be better, but as the article concluded there is a difference.

I usually buy 3 batches at once, making one right away, making the third at most 6 weeks later, often sooner. I refrigerate all the LME unless I am using it the next day as you suggested.

I like the Brulosophy site, and their postings. It makes us all think about process and ingredients, and fosters discussions like this. If you read the comments, he openly acknowledges that the experiments have variables. My biggest challenge with LME is caramelization. I've only used DME once, but it seemed to float and dissolve, rather than sink and brown. The caramel has been a plus in a couple of recipes, a minus in another. I love the process of grain brewing, and the tradition of it. But sometimes extract lets me brew when I otherwise would not.

My biggest challenge with LME is caramelization

I've gotten adept at avoiding it. When I used the fresh LME, I add enough LME in just slightly warmed water with the heat off to get to around a 1.03-1.04 wort. I then stir it up until I think it's dissolved, but then let it sit for a while. I then stir it up some more. Then I turn on the heat, and stir it a lot while it's coming to a boil. I then base my bittering hop additions around the worts OG. With about 10 minutes left in the boil, I turn off the heat, move the pot off the hot burner, add the rest of the LME and stir it until I'm sure it's dissolved. Then put it back on the heat and stir it some more while I bring it back to a boil. This also helps keep the color light, especially when using the pilsner extracts. Also using short boil techniques, if you can for your recipe, can help avoid unwanted caramelization.

The DME, I use it as a "filler" sometimes, but I think DME doesn't taste or smell as good as fresh LME. But I would use it over old/canned LME, as it is more consistent. But I'd always add some steeping grains of some sort to that if possible, to help make up for the DME's more "one noted" flavor/aroma.

Thanks for your process. I almost exclusively used LME until recently. I guess because I started with liquid HME, it was natural to switch to LME. I made Northern Brewer's Plinian Legacy recently, they provide DME. It seemed easier to use. I don't really have an opinion on it's flavor, because the beer is only just in the keg, and because it's so hoppy that I could have used flour and molasses as fermentables.