BeerBorg

A side question from my other thread in hopes I'll get some input here from those wiser than I when it comes to metallurgy.

Kealia wrote:

Whamolagan wrote:

FedoraDave wrote:
Dave, I am not sure if you know this, but lead leeches out of brass when heated. not so much as when boiled. Lead is the binder between tin and copper. Just a heads up. There is no such thing as lead free brass.

So should I be looking for bronze or stainless steel?
The mash tun I linked to mentions:

...complete with a brass ball valve offering superior flow control...

A Google search says:
"To enhance the machinability of brass, lead is often added in concentrations of around 2%. Since lead has a lower melting point than the other constituents of the brass, it tends to migrate towards the grain boundaries in the form of globules as it cools from casting. The pattern the globules form on the surface of the brass increases the available lead surface area which in turn affects the degree of leaching. In addition, cutting operations can smear the lead globules over the surface. These effects can lead to significant lead leaching from brasses of comparatively low lead content."

If this is really a concern why are people making things like this out of brass?
And should I be looking for only stainless steel or bronze valves then?

I am wise in nothing at all but did a google search and I still am not sure. One said the brass used in ball valves is very low another said that any lead isn't recommended.
But, this was an interesting read. http://byo.com/malt/item/1144-metallurg ... omebrewers

I have a brass ball valve on my mash tun...I have been acting a little differently since I made the switch to all grain, maybe the brass is what's wrong with me!! In all seriousness, I'll be reading the link above and following this thread for sure.

Just FYI from the link, about the only part that relates to this thread question is:

Brass is a group of alloys made from copper and zinc, with some lead thrown in for machinability. The lead percentage varies, but for the alloys used in plumbing fittings, it is 3% or less. It is this lead that can be dissolved off by the wort. While this teeny, tiny amount of lead is not a health concern, most homebrewers would be happier if wasn’t there at all. (See the sidebar on page 61 for a method to remove surface lead from brass)

Yeah, I've seen the write ups too. I guess I'm hoping for somebody with experience in this matter (maybe they work with metals for a living) that can speak to the 'danger' as well. I'm calling my Father-In-Law tonight as well. He was a general contractor for 25 years and should be familiar with what can/should be used for contact with food/water.

(That's not meant to discount what you posted, Paul).

Chris, do you have a 3rd eye yet?

Well brass or maybe bronze ball valves are all over your house plumbing. Tap water, shower valves, valves on the hot water tank...etc. The only one we drink from would be your sinks. I think the problem comes into play with higher temperatures and ph of the wort.

That being said I have a brass or bronze ball valve on my mashtun and I use a couple brass fittings. I dont really know the impact but it seems so common. I am slowly making the switch to stainless steel for all brewing plumbing but I still need one more ss ball valve for my mashtun.

MadBrewer wrote:Well brass or maybe bronze ball valves are all over your house plumbing. Tap water, shower valves, valves on the hot water tank...etc. The only one we drink from would be your sinks.

This is why you should never cook with hot water. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but it's true. You should always start with cold water and heat it on the stove. In fact, it's a good idea to run cold water for about a minute first thing in the morning (or after running hot water) before drinking, brushing your teeth, etc.

I had the "always cook with cold water" drilled into me when I worked in restaurants during high school and college and learned the other at some later point.

Based on all this, I'm really leaning towards SS. I think I would have better peace of mind not even thinking about this now that the seed has been planted.

I have always heard that too BP. Then there is always the scare of Legionnaires' disease. Should never cook with hot water from the tap or use it to make tea or anything like that.

Whamo is a plumber by trade, maybe he has a better understanding of all this.

I would love to hear his input. Somebody buy that guy a beer and get him over here!

I'm considering some old brass taps. I have yet to find anyone who said that their beer flavor was affected by brass. I know it's a different question because of the temperature, but I'm piggy-backing your thread.

Working for a very safety conscious company I had it drilled into my head "when in doubt take the safest course of action". That was why I paid extra for the stainless steel ball valve. That way I don't have to think about it. How much money are you saving buying the cooler over the pot you were looking at? Another $10 or $20 for piece of mind sounds like a bargain to me.

Considering that wort is acidic, and warm... I think I would err on the side of caution.

Lead really doesn't like to dissolve in water, which is why it's sorta safe in pipes. Sorta. If your water is hard (or say you use alkaline brewery wash for cleaning and really up the ph), it is even less likely, but given the presence of enough oxygen, it can become reactive and can form lead carbonate and that can form a film that coats and binds to the surfaces it touches as the water moves through them (pipes, etc.). If you were to test it coming out the tap, or your spigot, or whatever, it is still possible that no noticeable lead actually comes out when you use plain hard water, especially cold water because of how it reacts in these regards. It may have all been left behind as that coating. If you were to use an oxygen based cleaner then you'd potentially end up with lead hydroxide as well. Lead carbonates are pretty much always found where lead hydroxide is found, so ultimately it's going to have similar effects.

Either way, if there is an coating, then once acidic compounds touch it, it will be stripped from the surface and dissolve easily. It will form a lead sugar if there is any sugar in the mix. (this was done on purpose to sweeten wine as far back as Roman times... before people knew that "that bad mkay"). Even without sugar, the acidic nature makes it more easily be dissolved in water in the first place.

By the same token, soft water is more hazardous with old pipes then hard water. Lead will much more readily dissolve in soft water, where it doesn't do so much with hard water.

In any case, it's probably best, even if it's a tiny amount, to avoid ingesting any extra lead then you might already be.

So I'd go stainless if it was me.

EDITS for typos...

MadBrewer wrote:Whamo is a plumber by trade, maybe he has a better understanding of all this.

I'm here I'm here.

Ok Bp has it right on the using hot water for cooking. Now while most of the valves in your house are indeed brass, they are chromed. There is no such thing as lead free brass. Lead is the binder for copper and zinc in brass. As for bronze, I doubt there is bronze valves out there. This has been used since the bronze age. Now while heat does leech the lead it is more the PH AND heat that is the double whammy.
So now here is something for all of us budget minded people. When looking for keg taps, you want to stay away from the chromed taps. They are chromed brass and the ph of the beer eventually wears away the chrome. From the reasearch I have done, it always is at the seal point of the tap. I would steer way away from brass or bronze.

One of the reasons that you don't want to use hot water to cook with is that copper used in plumbing used to be sweated together with lead solder. This has been outlawed nationwide, but older homes still have it. So if you have an older home it is a good idea to let the water run a little while before filling the pans, or your glass. There is no filter out there that can get that leeched lead out.

I hope this clarifies things without a bunch reading technical crap.