PH, how low before it's not a good thing?

[Beer-lord]

3 water calculators were close enough that I went with the middle and shot for the 5.48 called for. 15 minutes in I checked and I was at 5.17! I quickly added some baking soda but how can it be that far off? I am using 10lbs of RedX and just set it as 'base malt' but I guess it's very much different.
It went up to 5.25 and I'm leaving it there. I have to believe that even though I calibrate with each use, my meter is off. But, I used 1ml of lactic acid as well as some gypsum, CaCl and Epsom. The last time I used only lactic acid, my beer was too bitter so I am using it sparingly. I guess I'll know in 4ish weeks when I taste it and while I don't have the best meter, it's somewhat middle of the road and seems to read the water ph from the faucet pretty close.
But, how close is close?

[mashani]

From a totally non-technical perspective (as in not mash chemistry but simply taste) - if your PH of the fermented beer gets low enough that you can notice it as "sour" at your taste threshold, it will start to make bittering hops seem too bitter for you at the level you are using them at. This is why true sours don't have much in the way of bittering hops. A mix of sour and bitter can get nasty quickly. A lot of newbie American microbrewed sours (I shall make a sour because sours are cool now) fail to please me because of this. Too much lactic acid is no different then having minor lacto infection in this regards. Hence your experience. So don't go as low as that was, with whatever amount of bittering hops you used. You apparently found your "threshold" as such.

[Beer-lord]

It was 5.35 when it was done and another lesson learned. Id rather be high than low but it was hard to judge out if the kettle.
Lots of 'never before' in this beer.

[MadBrewer]

Well, that's kind of a mult-part question. How low is too low...as for mash ph at 5.17 you were on the far low end but "guidelines" indicate 5.2-5.4 for the most part. The interesting thing as you seen at the end of your mash was the mash ph tends to rise throughout the the mash. So after your adjustments, you measured 5.25 but at the end of the mash it measured 5.35...all which is just fine. And knowing that now, if you ever end up low on a a future batch, just remember it will rise naturally and you might end up closer to where you want to be anyway. So with that said, I would actually prefer to be low than high. A high mash ph could be worse than a low. It's not so much the MASH ph that can create problems, but what happends downstream in the process. A high mash ph can lead to a high sparge ph, leading to tannin extraction. Not that it will ruin a batch, but it's just the truth of the matter, it's what higher ph does. Ultimately, high ph during the mash and sparge then continues on to a high boil ph which is where you can take a good wort and ruin it. High boil ph creates darkened wort color and can lead to harsher hop bitterness and even off flavors from the hops like grassy, vegetal character. Of course these are extreme cases of very high ph, not the norm that most of us might see. But the potential is there. And then at the tail end of things, if you have a high ph at the end of the boil, the wort going into the fermenter will have a harder time getting into the optimal zone of 4.2-4.5 ph for a finished beer. A low finished beer ph can make the beer tart, thin from being too acidic. A high finished beer ph, the beer can seem dull, lifeless. The malt flavors are muddy and hop flavors are not crisp or they don't "pop". It's all a balancing act, again not something to worry too much about. Most brewers aren't running into these problems, but there are cases and times it can be a problem. If peoples aren't checking they will never know, or never know how much better their beer could be.

It's funny you say your beer was bitter by adding 1ml lactic acid. It would take like l ml per gal of beer to taste the acid, it has a pretty high flavor
threshold. If anything, too much lactic acid in a batch will make it sour, a bit more tart as in a Berliner-whatever beer...same thing. So you have to ask yourself, what did make it too bitter? Bitter how, like hop bitterness or was it a sourness or tartness? But like Mashini said, you might have found the combo of acid and hops a bit more bitter than you are used to. But I believe it would still take more than 1ml. Are you sure you are using Lactic at 88% when you input it into the water calculator? There is also phosphoric acid at varied strengths available. I'm just trying to help you double check.

Another thing that comes to mind is before you blame your ph meter (which yes, could be out of calibration or having some other issue) the ph estimate the software gives is for a room temp sample, so if it estimates 5.3, you want your meter to read a cooled mash sample at 75* or so to be 5.3. But it is just an estimate, lots of things can make that vary. Seasonal water changes, temperature of the sample, and when you throw water salts into the mix that can do it too. How are you measuring your salt additions? Salts like baking soda, gypsum and calcium chloride absorb moisture so that can have an impact. I find when I do add salts, my measured mash ph is always off compared to the estimate. On the other hand, when I only adjust with lactic I am always nearly dead on to the estimate it gives. It's just one of those things that takes time to get a feel for.

The good news is you are going to have beer. And your beer will be just fine. One last question is when you do your calibration with the calibration fluid, you are calibrating the meter to that fluid at room temp right? Actually most calibration fluid is meant to be used at over room temp, like 75-77*. Believe me it does make a difference. Just wanted to double check your process.

[Beer-lord]

My tap water is about 7.04 and it came in at that do I think it's calibrated ok.
I did add a bit of baking soda that seemed to help.
I may use 50/50 water in the future.
I always appreciate your input and help. Thanks much. I'm not in the least bit worried. I have more beer than money.

[ScrewyBrewer]

My tap water is about 7.04 and it came in at that do I think it's calibrated ok.
I did add a bit of baking soda that seemed to help.
I may use 50/50 water in the future.
I always appreciate your input and help. Thanks much. I'm not in the least bit worried. I have more beer than money.

Paul how are you measuring pH? I try to use the same sequence of steps when taking pH readings.

I measure my water RO water at 70-77F, after adjusting it to the 'ezcalculated' values, before adding it to the kettle with grains. This works same with any of the brewing water calculators out there too.

About 20 minutes in I pull a wort sample from the mash, let it cool to 70-77F and then take a pH reading. That way I can compare the calculated values the actual wort's pH value.

As a last sanity check I'll warm up a sample of the carbed and conditioned beer and check it's pH. If the beer at room temperature is within the 3.9 - 4.4 pH range I know that I've done my job. Some very interesting reading....

[Beer-lord]

Vince, that's almost 100% of how I do it as well. Room temp always! I pulled a bit of mash at 18 minutes, then 35 then at 75. I added some baking soda after the first reading when I was a bit concerned.
I feel using gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom by itself seems to work better for me but since using RO water, I'm really starting over from scratch. I'm amazed because the TDS of my tap water is 207 and the RO is .001. Can't get any better than that, right?
I think I'll stick with EZWater as it seems to be better for me and my system than the other 2 calculators. Gotta go with what works for me.

[MadBrewer]

Thats the beauty with this sort of thing and brewing in general it is all pretty forgiving. I like EZ water. I only switched to the paid version of Bru'n Water because I find it the most accurate, has the sparge water acidification calculator and last...well I had to pay for it. EZ water worked well for me for a long time. I found it tends to estimate .1 higher than what I usully see as my actual. It may estimate 5.3 and ill see 5.2. That has been my experience anyway.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Sometimes I get more excited over a new beer recipe than ever before and this is one of those times. Knowing the limits of your brewing equipment and learning how to work within those limits guarantees a successful brewday. I record a recipe's calculated pH value, along with actual pH readings taken on brewday and save those pH values with the recipe. When designing a new recipe it is helpful to start off with pH values from a previous brewday and modifying it as needed. Questions like 'does my preferred calculator always underestimate or overestimate the actual pH value by some degree?' Knowing that answer can make correcting the recipe's pH value as simple as adding 0.10 to the calculated pH value.

[mashani]

It would take like l ml per gal of beer to taste the acid, it has a pretty high flavor threshold.

Usually, but it kind of depends. Some folks are "super tasters" of various things. IE I am an acetaldehyde super taster, if it has even a tiny bit in it I find it very annoying. And even without going over the taste threshold, it still might make the hop bitterness pop more to the forefront and seem more harsh beyond some personal taste threshold. I mentioned sours with too much bittering hops - apparently some folks don't notice this as much as I do because some of the beers I hate, others apparently like.

[MadBrewer]

It would take like l ml per gal of beer to taste the acid, it has a pretty high flavor threshold.

Usually, but it kind of depends. Some folks are "super tasters" of various things. IE I am an acetaldehyde super taster, if it has even a tiny bit in it I find it very annoying. And even without going over the taste threshold, it still might make the hop bitterness pop more to the forefront and seem more harsh beyond some personal taste threshold. I mentioned sours with too much bittering hops - apparently some folks don't notice this as much as I do because some of the beers I hate, others apparently like.

I'm like that with Belgians. I know it's a very old and artistic style of brewing, nothing against the beers or those that do like them but I must be very sensitive to the Belgian yeast character. It's just something I can't stomach. I can't do the clove/banana/spice thing.

[ScrewyBrewer]

I've added up to 2ml's of Lactic Acid per gallon when lowering the pH of my brewing water and the beer never tasted sour, to me. I think I read that adding Lactic Acid to the beer after fermentation, is something you can do if you wanted to make a faux-paux sour beer, but boiling the wort reduces any effect that Lactic Acid contributes.

[mashani]

@MadBrewer - I obviously love Belgians, but I like some types a lot more then others. IE Chimay yeast (WLP500) is probably my least liked Belgian yeast as far as being a "general purpose" strain. It is as you say clove, banana, spice, what proportions depending on temperature and pitch rate. I'm not such a fan of the strain Unibroue uses either. I really only like those strains is very strong or very dark colored Belgians. Actually the only Unibroue beer I actually really like is "La Fin Du Monde", and I'd still probably like that beer better if it was brewed with Westmalle yeast .

But I love stuff made with Strong Golden, Westmalle, and/or Abbaye strains for example. Those strains tend more towards fruit that isn't banana (more like plums, pears, apples), and spices that are not so much clove. Especially in a low abv blond single or patersbier fermented warm - the fruit shines and it's not banana, and the phenols are low.

Just sayin because perhaps there is a Belgian out there that you might actually like.

Do you hate Duval for example?

[Beer-lord]

After reading more than I wanted to and reading things way over my balding head, I found out that my sudden drop of ph was based on the amount of RedX malt and the fact that it's darker (I set it as simple base malt in the water calculators because I had not idea which type of grain I should list it as) plus the fact that I BIAB and it's a bit harder to adjust the mash ph with so much water as compared to standard mashing.
My next few beers I will add about half of the salts I normally do then adjust it down little by little so that I don't go to low and have to fight it again. It might take a bit more work but doing it this way with grains I am not sure about is probably the best way.
There's very little info on RedX but their website does give a bit of info which may help. http://www.bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-red-x/

[ScrewyBrewer]

Paul I used Munich malt for the pH calculations, I think it's the closest base malt to the RedX Malt.