BeerBorg

Is this what I need for understanding and building water profiles? My water comes from the beaver run column. I have started to dabble a bit into learning about water profiles. I'd like to get this all in the memory bank before my system is completed, which should be by the end of this month.

RayF wrote:Is this what I need for understanding and building water profiles? My water comes from the beaver run column. I have started to dabble a bit into learning about water profiles. I'd like to get this all in the memory bank before my system is completed, which should be by the end of this month.

No, 99% of that info is irrelevant to your brewing and does not list what you do need to know. I know sometimes brewers get lucky and can get the info they need from their water dept but this document is not giving you that. You might be able to call and talk to someone for the numbers you do need but it's a long shot. They will most likely direct you to what you already have above.

My advise to anyone looking to get into making adjustments to their water is to get the Brewers Test from WARD Labs. I'm not sure the cost anymore, but I think when I did it 5 yrs ago it was like $20. You send them a sample of your water and they get the info back to your in only a couple days. The only things related to what you need on that document above is ph, Alkalinity, Hardness and Sodium. They list Chlorides, but I do not think that is the same as Chloride as in Calcium Chloride. I think Chlorides has to do with chlorine content.

For the record what you need tested or have the numbers for are the following:

Calcium (Ca)
Magnesium (Mg) *Not to be confused with Manganese which your report does list.
Sodium (Na)
Chloride (Cl)
Sulfate (So4)

Hardness *Which your report does list.
Alkalinity *Which your report does list.
Bicarbonate (It's a useful measurement related to Alkalinity).
ph (This is not necessary to know the ph of the water itself). But WARD Labs will give it to you and it's listed on your report.

Something to note, is sometimes the numbers in your report are annual averages. Depending on your source water, the levles/numbers can change. It's really best to get your water tested by WARD Labs. If you want to use and rely on any kind of Brewing Water program you need the correct info. Now if you just want to add some Gypsum to hoppy beers and some Calcium Chloride to malty beers, you can do that too just fine. But then there's mash ph and adjusting that. That is mostly what I do and use Brewing Water programs for.

Thanks, Kenny. That pretty much answers all of my initial questions and more on the subject.

https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.php
It looks like it's up to $42 now. I still say doing this once every 3 years or so is a good idea. LaMotte makes kits that are semi-pro and pro and you can find some at More Beer. I don't think that's needed unless you have water that changes very often like in parts of California due to droughts and water table changes.

The "Brewers Test Kit" is more expensive but the kit includes the prepaid shipping, packaging, sample bottle...etc. You can order the plain Household Water Test for $21 and send in your sample in a plain plastic water bottle and save money going that route. Its probably on a few bucks to ship a water bottle. The household water test will give you the info you need. That is the one I used when I did it.

Almost a year later, I have finally ordered a water test kit! Are you all ready for my crazy questions? I bought the water book awhile back and have read a lot of it. That book is good but maybe a little too good for me! Some of it I followed some of it was beyond me.

Ask away Ray, there is plenty of experience here. There are several guys here that adjust their water. I bought and read the water book as well. Palmer is full of knowledge but the book can get a bit heavy. That doesnt mean you have to k ow or master it all, but knowing a little about it all will help in the long run. If your water report shows you have middle of the road water, you will probably find yourself not doing too much with your water. A little this or that for experimentation is always fun. It doesnt take much to make improvements nor does it have to be complicated. I would say your best bet is to focus on madh ph, thats what can really impqct your beer far greater than a water profile that might brong out the hops or accentuate malt character.

Have you checked out Bru'n Water yet to look it over.

I definitely think my beer has improved since I went to all RO water and dabbled in the black science of water salts. Not always perfect or easy but after a few brews, you realize the little extra steps pay off pretty 'bigly'.
However if your drinking water is good, you might not even have to worry about it.

RayF wrote:Almost a year later, I have finally ordered a water test kit! Are you all ready for my crazy questions? I bought the water book awhile back and have read a lot of it. That book is good but maybe a little too good for me! Some of it I followed some of it was beyond me.

Just a thought, when it comes to accuracy and money, investing in a RO filter is your best bet in the long run. Trying to interpret water reports. Wondering how much your water varies from season to season. It all takes a lot of effort and leaves you wondering just how accurate your results will be.

Using 100% RO or distilled water gives you a consistent water source and makes replicating the same recipes much easier. You will also want to invest in a decent pH meter at some point, to compare calculated results to actual mash pH results.

Thank You for the tips, Screwy. I ordered the test before I read this post. I'm going to try and make sense of the tap water that I currently have first. Then, If I feel that my beer will benefit from building from RO or distilled I will look into it then.


Well here it is. Is My water Good?

pH - 7.4
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm - 202
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 0.34
Cations / Anions, me/L / - 2.9/3.0


ppm
Sodium, Na - 25
Potassium, K - 1
Calcium, Ca - 26
Magnesium, Mg - 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 90
Nitrate, NO3-N - 0.7 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S - 13
Chloride, Cl - 48
Carbonate, CO3 - < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - 44
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - 36
Total Phosphorus, P - 0.31
Total Iron, Fe - 0.03

"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

Sodium, Na - 25
Calcium, Ca - 26
Magnesium, Mg - 6
Sulfate, SO4-S - 13
Chloride, Cl - 48
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - 44
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - 36

^This info is what is most important and what you will be using with water calculators such as EZ Water or Bru'n Water. I hightly recomend using and gettign a feel for Bru'n Water. As is, you have some nice water for middle of the road beers. Blonde Ales, Cream Ales, Light beers, etc. It is also great water to build on. What kind of beers do you normally brew, which ones seem to come out the best in your opinion?

The low Alkalinity and Bicarbonate will make it possible to make good light beers (Cream Ales, Pilsners, Kolsch, etc) with little adjustment needed. Brewing darker beers like Porters and Stouts, your low alkalinity might make for too low of a mash ph. Dark beer grain bills are much more acidic. You might need to add alkalinity for darker beers. Alkalinity is a measurement of buffering power your water will have that resists ph change due to grist composition in the mash. High alkalinity in water keeps mash ph high when making light beers, affecting beer flavor and character because it affects everything downstream from the mash. High alkalinity will require heavier amounts of acid to drop mash ph. On the other hand, low alkalinity like you have will not "put up as much of a fight" if that makes sense and it will be easier to hit a target mash ph without as much acid or salt additions.

A bit more calcium would be good, but you will be adding calcium from Gypsum and Calcium Chloride if you start playing with your water. Higher calcium content does help clarity and stability in the finished beer and has benefits in the mash but what you have is also just fine. Aside from all that, your sulfate and chloride tell how your beer will comes across for lack of a better term. Sulfate can make beers seem drier, crisper...some say it brings out the hops, makes the hops "pop"...however you want to look at it. Sulfate (Calcium Sulfate AKA Gypsum is good to add to Pale Ales, British Bitters, IPA's). Chloride does the opposite, especially paired with sodium (Na) which your water has a good amount off. To me chloride brings a smoothness, increases malt character, rounds out the flavor. Calcium Chloride is good to add to Porters, Stouts, Amber Ales...etc. Since your water has more Chloride than Sulfate, your beers will probably seem more neutral, balanced, etc.

That's the jist of it, I know you are going to have questions, ask away! Just remember, it doesn't have to be complicated, and it's really not. Start off by using the water you have, be sure to check mash ph, make adjustments if it's out of range. It may be just fine for most beers you brew. You may just need to pay special attention to darker beers, but checking (measuring) is the only way to know...just like having your water tested, how else would you know. Use your water as is, taste what your water brings to the beer. Then experiment with adding gypsum to hoppy beer styles you brew and try adding chloride to darker beers like Porters and Stouts. Your water is not what is important so much, it's how your water drives your mash ph that is the big picture and then having sulfate, sodium and chloride be your "seasonings". I don't chase water profiles, the exact amounts aren't that important to me, the impact to the finished beer is. It doesn't take much to make improvements. I'm not implying you need any adjustments, you may be perfectly happy with the beers you brew as is, just saying there are different things to try. It can help to make adjustments to different styles, to make the beer better, it's a given that the same water will not be best for all the beers you brew, that goes for anyone. This is why certain beers are brewed in different parts of the world. You can't brew a German Pilsner with highly alkaline Dublin Water (they brew Stouts, Porters and dark Irish Reds because of the water) and you can't brew a good Porter with water from Pilsen without changes to the water (Pilsen water is too low in mineral content, the large amount of dark grains would plument the mash ph). Those are extreme examples, but just trying to help you understand.

I have a lot of info I can post or message you if interested.

Thanks for the post, Kenny! I appreciate your time. Lots of info to digest. The brews that have been my best have been IPA's. Any info that you may have or links that I should look into that opens my eyes to brewing water would be appreciated.

Thanks for the post MadBrewer, I enjoyed reading that.

I played around with the water profile of the NEIPA that's fermenting now. Some of this stuff goes over my head, but it's a fun hobby.
This is my water profile and what I changed it to for the recipe. Any thoughts or input will be greatly appreciated and soaked up like a sponge.

Sodium, Na...................6 remains same
Potassium, K.................2
Calcium, Ca...................8 changed to 89
Magnesium, Mg...............2 changed to 16
Total Hardness, CaCO3......28
Nitrate, NO3-N.................0.5
Sulfate, SO4-S..................1 changed to 142
Chloride, Cl.......................8 changed to 93
Carbonate, CO3..................<1
Bicarbonate, HCO3...............32
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3..........26
Total Phosphorus, P................0.50
Total Iron, Fe.........................0.02

RayF wrote:Thanks for the post, Kenny! I appreciate your time. Lots of info to digest. The brews that have been my best have been IPA's. Any info that you may have or links that I should look into that opens my eyes to brewing water would be appreciated.

No problem Ray. Here's a link to the Bru'n Water page. You can download the excel spreadsheet for free. You can also read over the "water knowledge" page on the website, it's full of a lot of info and can help you make sense of this water stuff. I admit, the program can be a little overwhelming to look at but it's a very cool and helpful program. Just take it page by page and play around with it, read it over and get a feel for it. You have to start by adding your water profile from your WARD Labs report for a baseline. I use it mainly to estimate my mash ph and to acidify my sparge water. I have found it very accurate and trust worthy. I used to really like using EZ Water but my results have been hit and miss, I find it not as accurate but it might be worth checking out as a first start. I think they are on version 3. Bru'n Water has man more features to it but EZ water is well, super easy to use.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Inkleg wrote:Thanks for the post MadBrewer, I enjoyed reading that.

I played around with the water profile of the NEIPA that's fermenting now. Some of this stuff goes over my head, but it's a fun hobby.
This is my water profile and what I changed it to for the recipe. Any thoughts or input will be greatly appreciated and soaked up like a sponge.

Sodium, Na...................6 remains same
Potassium, K.................2
Calcium, Ca...................8 changed to 89
Magnesium, Mg...............2 changed to 16
Total Hardness, CaCO3......28
Nitrate, NO3-N.................0.5
Sulfate, SO4-S..................1 changed to 142
Chloride, Cl.......................8 changed to 93
Carbonate, CO3..................<1
Bicarbonate, HCO3...............32
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3..........26
Total Phosphorus, P................0.50
Total Iron, Fe.........................0.02

Well, as is your water is very low in mineral content, it's very neutral...might even say pure, and actually quite similar to RO water, maybe a little more Alkalinty and Bicarbonate than you would have in RO water, but in that ballpark otherwise. So again, very nice water to build on for anything you want to brew.

As far as the changes you made for your NEIPA, by adding the Sulfate and Chloride you boosted your Calcium, as you noted with the 89ppm. Calcium is good, it has benefits in the mash and calcium acts to lower mash ph. Pair that with already low Alkalinity, you probably do not have any trouble with too out of whack mash ph. Bumping up the Sulfate to 142ppm is a good middle of the range for hoppy beers styles. Many profiles suggest 300-350 ppm Sulfate for hoppy Pale Ales and IPA's. I have never gone that high, I have gone as high as 150 and I think that's plenty to get the idea of what it brings. But along with the Sufate, you also brought up the Chloride to 93, not a bad thing but that boost in Chloride is going to help to balance or counteract the Sulfate you added. So it will make the balance and impact different than if you added just the 143 Sulfate alone. A lot of hoppy profiles I have seen keep Chloride to around 50 when boosting Sulfate. But there is such a wide range, the difference between 50 and say 100 sulfate or chloride for that matter might not be that great. Like a lot of things in brewing, water and water profiles/water additions are pretty forgiving.

Are you checking mash ph? I would be curious where it ended up with a light grist such as what you had with the additions you made. You can always plug it into EZ Water or Bru'n Water and see what you get. What is the source of you water Inkleg? Like I asked Ray, what kind of bees do you usually brew with this water and how do you think the come out?