Gotta make a sour - need some guidance

FedoraDave · Post by **FedoraDave** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:34 am

My daughter likes sours, and she recently took me to task on Facebook for naming a beer after a friend of ours, and also our cat, but not naming any beers after my own child.

Well, I took that as a challenge, and I've decided to brew a Berliner Weisse and name it after her (somehow; I haven't actually figured that part out yet).

My research indicates a malt bill that's 50% wheat malt and 50% Pilsner, which sounds good to me. Keep it simple, and that actually sounds really tasty. White Labs produces a Berliner Weisse yeast, so that's a natural choice. Long conditioning will help with developing the tartness we want.

What I'm wondering about is the hops. The BJCP guidelines indicate pretty much no hop influence should be perceived, and the IBU range is something like 3 - 8, which is practically water. But some hops must be used at some point. I'm thinking a German Noble hops, such as Hallertau or Tettnang would be the obvious choice, and I would only use a tiny amount in the bittering boil. None for flavor or aroma. Not sure if that's correct or not, but it's a starting place. More research is needed, but I thought I'd solicit some ideas here.

Thanks!

Post by **BlackDuck** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:02 am

Can't wait to hear from the sour pros here also. I want to make one too, but, from what I've read, it's more complicated than you think.

I've read there are a couple ways to sour it, but most require a way to hold a temp for 24 to 48 hours between 110 and 120F. Either the mash if adding in unmilled grain or the wort if adding lacto. And pH is very important to.

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FedoraDave · Post by **FedoraDave** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:10 am

Well, here's what I have so far:

Sour Torte
Berliner Weisse
Batch volume: 2.5 gallons

1.33 lb. Pilsner malt
1.33 lb. Wheat malt

0.33 oz. Tettnanger hops - 15 minutes

WLP630 - Berliner Weisse Blend

OG: 1.030
FG: 1.007
ABV: 3%
IBU: 6
SRM: 2

I usually do my small batches BIAB, but the BJCP Guidelines for the style indicate a decoction mash with mash hopping is traditional. I'd like to do that, but I don't know how that would translate in BrewToad, and what adjustments to the amount I would need to make if I were to eliminate the boil addition and go with mash hopping. I'll inquire at my LHBS next time I go there.

FedoraDave · Post by **FedoraDave** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:20 am

Well, Black Duck, I found this, and there are positives and negatives, as I see it.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/ ... er-weisse/

I might do an experiment to see how long my mash tun will hold temperature. If it stays at the proper range for 24 hours, that's an option. Otherwise, I might go with option 3, although I'm curious as to whether the specific yeast strain isn't designed to kind of do that anyway. The White Labs site is fairly mum about exactly what is going on with this yeast, but is perfectly willing to say it's just the thing for a Berliner Weisse. And they do call it "Berliner Weisse Blend." So what's it blended with?

Post by **BlackDuck** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:37 am

I've read that article a couple times. I think #3 might be the easiest, but I still think you need to hold a warm temp after you pitch the lacto for a day or so. Holding that temp is the biggest hurdle for me...at least I think it is.

Here is a BeerSmith Article on brewing a Berliner. Bullet point 5 mentions holding the temp after pitching the lacto.

Post by **BlackDuck** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:43 am

Here is another article to read up on

FedoraDave · Post by **FedoraDave** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:51 am

That last article seemed very sciency to me, and I don't do well with stuff like that.

I sense some slight contradictions in the various processes put forth, although holding the temperature seems to be vital in all of them (again, unless the yeast blend is meant to obviate that step). Introduction of Lactobacillus in one form or another is what makes it sour; but exactly at what point in the process it's introduced seems to differ. It may be a case of all of these things working, and it comes down to Brewer's Choice. Not everyone's set-up is conducive to the preferred or traditional methods, so other means must make do. The final result may not be the classic example of the style, but is likely to be able to pinch-hit until the classic example comes to the plate.

When I have more time, I'm going to read and take notes on all of these articles, so I can organize my thoughts and form some questions.

Post by **BlackDuck** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:31 pm

I just leave this one right here!!!....

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Post by **Beer-lord** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:33 pm

Nice coaster too!

mashani · Post by **mashani** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:18 pm

FedoraDave wrote:The BJCP guidelines indicate pretty much no hop influence should be perceived, and the IBU range is something like 3 - 8, which is practically water. But some hops must be used at some point. I'm thinking a German Noble hops, such as Hallertau or Tettnang would be the obvious choice, and I would only use a tiny amount in the bittering boil. None for flavor or aroma. Not sure if that's correct or not, but it's a starting place. More research is needed, but I thought I'd solicit some ideas here.
Thanks!

Some traditional recipes for Berliner were not even boiled, they were basically mash hopped, brought up to a hot but not rolling boil temperature, and then the heat goes off. There is a Berliner you can buy at whole foods that is made based on one of those recipes. That would be this one if you feel like looking for it. It is most excellent.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/23495/36378/

In any case, that process was enough to kill every kind of bacteria that existed in the wort, except for a tiny bit of lacto which is a tough little bastard (it can live at 170... and even higher temps for a while. I know from experience.)

Then they would pitch some hefe yeast. So the hefe yeast would do it's thing and then the lacto would get involved. Sometimes some brett too but it's not necessary or necessarily desired.

The yeast you selected is a mixture of hefe yeast and lacto in a proportion where there is more hefe yeast so it gets a foothold first - so basically if using that you can go ahead and just boil it for a while though and get the same effect. That makes your IBU calculations easier and assures that you just get the yeast/lacto vibe.

In my view anything over around 7 IBUs in such a beer is too much and it's better to fall on the low side then the high side.

The lacto sour will balanced the residual sweetness just fine.

An overly bittered sour can easily become harsh and undrinkable.

Pudge · Post by **Pudge** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:49 am

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brewin ... er-weisse/

FedoraDave · Post by **FedoraDave** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:22 am

Now I'm really confused.

Mashani, you say that the wort isn't even boiled?

What, then, about the Pilsner malt? Isn't that supposed to be boiled for 90 minutes to chase away nasty flavors and aromas? Or does the lacto override that or mitigate it in some other way? Or, because this isn't an actual Pilsner beer, does it not matter? I know how pristine Pilsners have to be, and this ain't anywhere near a pristine beer.

Also, I can see that the software way of calculating things isn't going to be much help as far as hops goes, if I'm going to mash hop (which I'm leaning toward). Even though there's a mash option for hop additions in BrewToad, I don't necessarily trust it as far as the time goes. I mean, do I say it's an hour addition? And is the IBU even reliable for a non-boil addition? I don't know if I trust it.

The process is beginning to confuse me.

Post by **BlackDuck** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:06 am

And one more question Mashani, how familiar with the Berliner Weiss yeast in question? Have you used it?

Wyeast has its temp range from 68 to 72. So my main question is, can you just ferment in this range and call it a day? Or should you hold the temp at a higher range for a period of time as is described in just about every article I read about making this style.

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FedoraDave · Post by **FedoraDave** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:55 am

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp ... isse-blend

There's the White Labs page for the yeast strain I intend to use. The description is scanty, but it seems to indicate that it'll get the job done by itself, but it will take time after bottling. There doesn't seem to be any way from the website to contact them with questions, though, which is a pity, because I'd like to hear from an expert (or at least a rep) if how I'm reading it is true.

I'm going to make inquiries at my LHBS before I do anything, but I'm half tempted to just make this recipe as a regular BIAB, with a mash hop, bring it to a boil to get the hot break out of the way, then use this yeast, ferment for my usual three weeks, bottle, and let it sit until some time in summer. Maybe give it to my daughter for her second anniversary come Labor Day.

BigPapaG · Post by **BigPapaG** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:46 pm

All good stuff...

If you make your wort as normal and calculate your IBU's to around 7 you should be ok.

Mash your grain bill a bit on the cool side (148 ish to 150 tops) and shoot for an FG of around 4% tops...

No need for a long boil... Or any boil for that matter... Boiling is for hop isomerization (low hop bitterness in a Berliner so not much needed here) and to drive off DMS pre-cursors (again, not boiling so no pre-cursors are made here)...

So, the next two steps differ... Depending on whether you can hold 100+ degrees for 24-48 hours or not.

[More Challenging:]
Pitch lacto only or the blended yeast and then heat the wort to 105-108°F (cover the top of the wort with plastic wrap to limit exposure to oxygen) and hold for 24 hours to favor the Lacto, and then heat the wort to 165°F and hold for a couple of minutes to kill off any bad (undesirable) bugs... You should pitch more blended yeast at this point due to the fact you heated to 165°F.

[Standard Challenge:]
If that's not practical, just heat the wort to 165°F, hold for a few minutes and cool, and THEN PITCH your blended yeast and proceed as normal.

The blended yeast will ferment at ale temps and produce a nice german ale with a bit of sourness from the lacto.

Conditioning time in the bottle will bring out some additional sourness over time but overall, you will end up with a very enjoyable, slightly sour german ale... Perfect for those folks uninitiated in the world of sour beers.

Carbonate to about 2-2.4 volumes of CO2 at most unless you are using thicker walled Belgian style bottles or are kegging the result... Then you could up it to 3 volumes... Most of the Berliners I have had or made start out fizzy but don't hold a good head...

So overall, those are the easy instructions.

Beyond that, many methods... Boil, no boil, sour mash, normal mash with post boil sour...