Gotta make a sour - need some guidance

[Pudge]

Listen to the above Brewing Network audio link. You can listen to it while you're browsing elsewhere. You'll have to sit through some middle school humor no doubt, but those guys, Jamil Zanisheff, Mike McDole, and John Plise, are all NHC gold medal winners.

It's approx 55 minutes.

Edit... FFWD to about the 35-36 min mark to get into recipe design.

[Inkleg]

Or.........just to complicate it even more......you could mash high like 160 with low IBUs and pitch something like this. Set it aside and forget about it for a year.
There are more ways to do sours than ales and lagers.

[BlackDuck]

Very interesting Jeff.


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[Inkleg]

Bringing a few different Sours made from that mix to Asheville. Wonder where Ron's beers are, dammit.

[Beer-lord]

Don't love em but I like to try different things so looking forward to that.

[mashani]

Now I'm really confused.

Mashani, you say that the wort isn't even boiled?

What, then, about the Pilsner malt? Isn't that supposed to be boiled for 90 minutes to chase away nasty flavors and aromas? Or does the lacto override that or mitigate it in some other way? Or, because this isn't an actual Pilsner beer, does it not matter? I know how pristine Pilsners have to be, and this ain't anywhere near a pristine beer.

Also, I can see that the software way of calculating things isn't going to be much help as far as hops goes, if I'm going to mash hop (which I'm leaning toward). Even though there's a mash option for hop additions in BrewToad, I don't necessarily trust it as far as the time goes. I mean, do I say it's an hour addition? And is the IBU even reliable for a non-boil addition? I don't know if I trust it.

The process is beginning to confuse me.

So I think BigPapa answered this, but I'll reiterate that since you are not bringing it to a full boil if you do that process, you are not creating a bunch of DMS precursors that need to then be blown off. What little you will make by the heating process will be blown off during fermentation.

And one more question Mashani, how familiar with the Berliner Weiss yeast in question? Have you used it?

Wyeast has its temp range from 68 to 72. So my main question is, can you just ferment in this range and call it a day? Or should you hold the temp at a higher range for a period of time as is described in just about every article I read about making this style.

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I think BigPapa answered this too, but just keep it anywhere in that range. You don't need to warm it up at the end. Just don't let it get too cold or the lacto will go slow.

Or.........just to complicate it even more......you could mash high like 160 with low IBUs and pitch something like this. Set it aside and forget about it for a year.
There are more ways to do sours than ales and lagers.

Yeah, you could do that, but normally a Berliner should be able to be consumed fresh out of the fermenter if you want. It's not supposed to be a sour that requires long of aging like a gueze or the like. Getting really funky things like pedio or the like into the mix that require long aging to avoid "temporary but quite nasty while they are there" flavors is undesirable. The best Berliners (IMHO) are just lacto sour. Some Brett is ok, but aging to fully develop the brett character isn't really necessary, nor really desired.

The yeast he picked is just that, it will give him just lacto. The beer should be drinkable very quickly, it should not need long aging with the yeast blend he picked.

[FedoraDave]

Thanks for all the information. I am leaning toward the less-challenging process BigPapa described, partly because I don't really have the equipment to do a long-term high-temperature rest, and partly because I just don't want to work too hard at this, but I still want a decent beer in the end.

Oh, and then my daughter tells me I could have just made a nice red for her, because she dyes her hair red, and she was only being a brat about it. She did suggest calling it "Sour BRATen" though, so I have to give her props for that. I'm sticking with Sour Torte Weisse, and I'm thinking this actually might become one of my summer go-to recipes if I like the results. I like lower grav, refreshing beers in the summer, and this may complement my Sunbonnet Lemon Wheat, my Straw Boater Blonde Ale, and my Bit O'Bitter.

[mashani]

The yeast you are using is really designed to give you good results with just pitching it like you would in a normal beer, so the simple process is just fine. The high temperature rest is just if you want to make it even MOAR SOUR. But you should not need that really unless you really want a "smack you upside the head sour!". But a beer that sour is (at least in Europe) often served with a shot of sugary fruit or herb flavored syrup to tone it down.

That said, if you think it's not sour enough, then if you still can't pull off that warm rest you could buy a vial / pack of just lacto and pitch that, then a couple of days later pitch some wheat beer yeast. But I don't think you will be disappointed with what you chose as is.

[BlackDuck]

Mashani, have you used the WLP630 Berliner Weiss Blend?

[BlackDuck]

Two interesting comments on yeast from The Mad Fermentationist site:

WLP630 Berliner Weisse Blend – Contains a hefeweizen Saccharomyces strain along with Lactobacillus, so it will not result in a beer as clean as a classic Berliner weisse. It produces a beer closer to Professor Fritz Briem 1809, which exhibits banana and clove aromatics in addition to sourness.

This is the first I've read anything that mentions the banana and clove characteristics, but it makes sense since it's a hefe yeast blended with Lacto.

ECY06 Berliner Weisse Blend – This blend contains Kölsch yeast along with a high ratio of Lactobacillus (L. delbrueckii and L .brevis), which makes for more aggressive sourness than either the Wyeast or White Labs Berliner weisse blends.

Going to have to do a little more research on this one.


EDIT....Here's a quote from the East Coast Yeast website:

ECY06 Berliner Blend: Designed to be pitched into primary fermentation for Berliner weisse, Gosebier, and other styles where lactic sourness is desired, the blend contains a kolsch yeast, Lactobacillus brevis and Lactobacillus delbreuckii. Suggested fermentation temperature: 70-74ºF.

[BlackDuck]

Here is another lacto option from Omega Yeast Labs.

[mashani]

Mashani, have you used the WLP630 Berliner Weiss Blend?

Yes, it makes an authentic Berliner with a little bit of clove and/or banana (fermenter warmer to get more banana and less clove).

It is not a good choice to use with BigPapaG's idea of holding temps warm to promote the lacto, because you will likely get a hideous banana bomb. Or nail polish. Either way probably not good.

To do what he says for that purpose, IMHO what you would want to pitch a pure lacto strain, hold warm for a while, then cool to normal fermentation temps and then pitch whatever other strain you are using. That way your yeast don't do bizzare things due to high temps. The OMEGA yeast you posted above is such a pure strain of Lacto that you could do this with. I would not use pure lacto only to make a Berliner, so you would want to add something else after that got a foothold.

The Kolsch ones are IMHO for people who don't like German wheat beer *at all* because of the clove esters or banana phenols. I would use those in a Goze, or a fruity sour, but not really a Berliner. (that said some cloves can taste really nice in a fruity sour). IMHO Authentic Berliner is a soured German Wheat beer - as in does have at least hints of cloves, banana, or plum/pear/etc. esters (things made by various German Wheat beer strains). And even with the authentic wheat beer strain involved, the cloves and banana will be more subdued then a normal German Wheat beer because the lacto eating up stuff doesn't give the wheat beer strain as much time or raw materials to do it's "damage" as such.

[BlackDuck]

Good info Mashani...thank you.


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[mashani]

Good info Mashani...thank you.
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FYI: I think I edited my post to include more detail about the Omega yeast and you cross posted with me, so you might want to look again.

[BigPapaG]

Mashani, have you used the WLP630 Berliner Weiss Blend?

Yes, it makes an authentic Berliner with a little bit of clove and/or banana (fermenter warmer to get more banana and less clove).

It is not a good choice to use with BigPapaG's idea of holding temps warm to promote the lacto, because you will likely get a hideous banana bomb. Or nail polish. Either way probably not good.

To do what he says for that purpose, IMHO what you would want to pitch a pure lacto strain, hold warm for a while, then cool to normal fermentation temps and then pitch whatever other strain you are using. That way your yeast don't do bizzare things due to high temps. The OMEGA yeast you posted above is such a pure strain of Lacto that you could do this with. I would not use pure lacto only to make a Berliner, so you would want to add something else after that got a foothold.

The Kolsch ones are IMHO for people who don't like German wheat beer *at all* because of the clove esters or banana phenols. I would use those in a Goze, or a fruity sour, but not really a Berliner. (that said some cloves can taste really nice in a fruity sour). IMHO Authentic Berliner is a soured German Wheat beer - as in does have at least hints of cloves, banana, or plum/pear/etc. esters (things made by various German Wheat beer strains). And even with the authentic wheat beer strain involved, the cloves and banana will be more subdued then a normal German Wheat beer because the lacto eating up stuff doesn't give the wheat beer strain as much time or raw materials to do it's "damage" as such.

Agreed!