Gotta make a sour - need some guidance

[BlackDuck]

The info on the Omega site has you pitching the lacto only into the wort, wait until it's sour to your liking, about 48 hours or so, then boil the wort to kill of the lacto bacteria. Basically doing a kettle sour. And it's temp range is fairly low.

I would have to wait until summer though. That's when my basement is steady in the upper 60's, even low 70's.

This has been a great thread with a lot of good info.


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[mashani]

The info on the Omega site has you pitching the lacto only into the wort, wait until it's sour to your liking, about 48 hours or so, then boil the wort to kill of the lacto bacteria. Basically doing a kettle sour. And it's temp range is fairly low.

That is fine if you want an all lacto beer, but by no means is that a "rule" that must be followed, nor should it for many types of beers. A Berliner is really not supposed to be an all lacto beer. It would be fine for a fruity kind of sour though or an American style Goze or sour Fruity/Hybrid kind of thing. IE a "clean sour".

There really is no reason to boil to kill off the lacto unless you are just trying to nail in a certain level of sour and then force carb it and/or are scared about contaminating your equipment (kegs should be easily cleaned, but maybe your picnic tap lines would get contaminated). If you were bottle conditioning a beer though (me), you'd be screwed unless you cooled it and added some yeast and there was something left for the yeast to eat. I didn't kill the lacto in my soured Lean Froch, and it has not contaminated anything even though I've re-used some of the PETs and the auto-siphon. I was just careful to bleach bomb the things. Leaving it alive it will slowly change over time, but won't produce bottle bombs unless you are silly and bottle it stupidly early, assuming you made an easily fermentable wort. It will just get a little bit more sour and more complex.

The idea that lacto won't sour if it's not hot regardless of variety is not really correct, most of it will still work in the mid-upper 60s/70s - it will just sour faster if it is warmer then that, as it tends to start up slower then yeast - which helps it out compete other things because the lactic acid/ph changes produced along with the alcohol kills other stuff. And its not like yeast where it makes phenols/esters depending on temps. Yeast is a much more complex animal. If pitched along with yeast, IE like in the WLP630 blend, there isn't anything to worry about as far as out competing other things. It would be more an issue if you used no yeast at all. The lacto will eat stuff the wheat beer yeast will not, so it will still sour yeast or not. It really depends on just how sour you want it to be. Holding in the really warm temperature range is much more important when making something like yogurt then beer, especially if yeast is in the mix (and in the wild world, there is really always yeast in the mix, a pure lacto pitch or a pure yeast pitch or a pure anything else pitch is a VERY MODERN human invention. Much more modern then most people seem to understand!). Beer has far more fermentable things that yeast likes, so the yeast in the mix turns into a state that kills everything bad for you long before anything bad for you can do anything that is... well.. bad for you. But yogurt isn't like that, and it can have "bad things happen" before it's "done" if you don't do it right.

Someone posted something about mashing high and then pitching bug blends on this thread - the idea there is to stop the yeast fermentation at a higher terminal gravity, preserving stuff for the bugs to eat that the yeast can't. This would be more important with other things then lacto, such as Brett, Pedio, and the like (true bug farm blends). Some of those things take forever to get going compared to Sacc and take their merry time eating and sometimes make hideous flavors and or consistency while doing it that take a long time to condition out (disgusting levels of diacetyl, "why is this now reminding me of baby puke", funky slimy/thicker texture, all sorts of fun things, yeah for Pedio). But a lacto / yeast blend pitched in a cooler temperature mash is not like that, it will do its thing in normal fermentation window of time and then stop and be safe to bottle / keg and ready to consume rapidly and doesn't need long aging.

Hopefully that helps clarify a few things...

[mashani]

This little chart might be useful since we have touched on some of these concepts here. It's kind of hard to follow at first, until you "get it". The temp and times (think days) listed are not 100%, of course it depends on the "type" to some extent - but for the most part those are temps where things will not die no matter how long they are at it. As in say the Lacto 150 number... just because you heat above that doesn't make it all die. IE some kinds of lacto can live at 170+ for 20 minutes or more. It's a tough bastard. And say the Brett 4-100 number. It just depends on the type of Brett and what you have in there for it to eat. It is why young Orval Trappist tastes totally different then Old Orval Trappist, and the old stuff is slightly more "Belgian carbed". The Brett C I have in my house does its thing pretty fast, with it being 99.something% fermented out and noticeable pellicle forming around day 10-14 and is safe to bottle soon afterword's. I don't wait 100 days, and I don't get bottle bombs. YMMV depending on your bugs.

Enterobac and molds are the things you really do not want, but you can see why you don't end up with them in a properly fermented beer, or properly lactic/acetic acid laden fermented anything else.

What the chart is missing is what types of sugars and starches various things eat, but that gets too complicated to chart when it comes to yeast as a "general rule". But basically Brett, some wilder Sacc strains (Bella Saison, Wyeast 3711), and many of the bugs can eat starch and complex sugars (IE the high temperature mash) that your normal tamed yeast will not. This is one of the reasons you normally want to keep starch out of your wort, but why sometimes folks who make sours don't try so hard.

BTW: This came from somewhere a long time ago, I did not make it, and I'd credit the source if I knew it.

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[FedoraDave]

Fascinating stuff. I had no idea this thread would take this direction, but hey, it's The Borg

But all this information is steering me closer and cementing in my decision to mash hop a very small amount of Tettnang (maybe 1/4 oz), bring the wort through hot break, flame out immediately, cool and pitch and let the WLP630 take care of the rest.

Right now, my basement is fairly cool; I've got three batches fermenting down there, and it's around 64 degrees or so. It could get cooler if we get any Arctic Vortex action, though. If I bring it upstairs to ferment in the beer closet, it'll be in an ambient temp of 74, which may be better, although I think I would prefer more clove than more banana, but I'll have to take what I get, I suppose, and I can trust the closet to have more stable temperatures than the basement at this time of year.

Or I could hold off brewing this until March or April, and it would still have four or five months in the bottle to condition properly for a late summer sour beer.

[BigPapaG]

Dave, you could put your fermenter in a cooler or maybe your mash tun and surround it with some water...

It will act as a temperature buffer between ambient and wort temps.

You can also effect some temp control by adding an ice pack to the water if need be, or removing some water and adding some warmer / cooler water as needed.

[FedoraDave]

Those could be options, but I don't think I have the right sized vessels for that kind of thing. Also, it would mean checking it every 12 hours or so, and I don't feel like doing that. I like to set it and forget it. Depending on the time of year, the basement may be in the mid-high 60s, which I would definitely take, and which I think would work with the yeast and the level of tanginess I want. I'm not looking for anything with a strong clove or banana influence, or that is so sour it makes you squeeze your eyes shut. I just want a tangy German weisse with a 3 - 3.5% ABV for summer refreshment. It would be a good secondary summer beer to go with my Sunbonnet Lemon Wheat, and my Bit O'Bitter.

[Inkleg]

Also, it would mean checking it every 12 hours or so, and I don't feel like doing that.

Aren't you retired?

[FedoraDave]

Semi-retired; I've got a part-time gig. Yeah, I'd have time. What I lack is the motivation.

[FedoraDave]

Well, when I went to my LHBS yesterday (because now, Thursday is the new Saturday), I checked to see if they had the Berliner Weisse Blend yeast, and was pleased to see they did. The guy there told me they try to keep a couple of vials of it in stock at all times, so that's good to know.

And then I started talking to him about making a sour, and he had a lot of good information for me. Turns out he loves sours and always makes them, so I will definitely pick his brains some more. My approach will be more "This is what I was planning.... what do you think?" rather than just asking open-ended questions, because I know I can't do a kettle sour or whatever you call it, because my equipment simply won't accommodate that.

I'm leaning toward mashing, hitting hot break, flame-out with a hops addition (which is something the LHBS guy suggested), then cooling to pitching temp and trying to ferment at a higher temperature, which means mid- high-70s if I bring it upstairs into the beer closet.

Then bottling and letting it sit in the beer closet for an extended period to let the yeast do its thing.

I'll see what he says next time I go there.

[swenocha]

I'll bet you could do this kettle sour, Hat...

http://goodbelly.com/2016/06/01/goodbre ... er-recipe/

Berliner Weisse Style Ale

Ingredients (Makes 5 gallons)

3lbs Pilsner DME
3lbs Wheat DME
2 GoodBelly StraightShots
WLP644 Saccharomyces Brux-Like Trois


Heat 5.5 Gallons of water to 160f. Stir in DME. Raise heat to 180f and hold for 10min. Cool to 110f. Pour wort (albeit unhopped) into fermenter. Add GoodBelly Shots and test acidity with pH meter, pH strips, or by taste every 12-24 hours until desired acidity is achieved.

Pitch WLP644 yeast. Within weeks your fermentation will be complete and you can bottle with priming sugar or keg condition to carbonate

Blackduck and I discussed this process a bit in Asheville. I note that the above recipe is missing a couple steps I'd likely do (and that I see in other GoodBelly recipes posted online)... Adding a small bittering hop boil after the fermenter souring, and keeping the fermenter souring at some "higher than room temp" temperature. I see other recipes that say 90-110 degrees is a good range for GoodBelly.

Here's another loose recipe from Milk the Funk...

60/40 pilsner and white wheat. Mashed and boiled 15 min unhopped then chilled to 115 degrees and pitched a carton of pomegranate goodbelly to 5g of wort. Wrapped it with plastic wrap and wrapped a queen size electric blanket around the kettle. I checked the ph every day. third day it was 3.6ish(I'm using strips). Boiled 30 min added 1 oz of saaz at boil and 4lbs of mixed berry puree at 5min. Chilled to 70 degrees and pitched a starter of wlp320 (hefe) yeast.

Here's another method, using a mash hop and no hop boil...

3 gallon batch. 2lbs CMC pale malt, 2lbs Briess white wheat. OG 1.033. Mash at 148F for an hour. I added about 4 cascade hop pellets to the mash. I did BIAB for this so I just lifted the bag out, drained it and then heated it up to 170F for a minute or so to kill off anything in the wort. Chilled to 100F and tossed in half a container of Good Belly for 48hrs. Chilled to 64F and pitched a 500mL starter of Conan. I'll let it ferment out and the add ~5lbs raspberries.

[mashani]

and then heated it up to 170F for a minute or so to kill off anything in the wort

FWIW, that's not necessarily going to kill all the lacto that is already in the mash from the grains, but it doesn't matter since your chucking in a bunch of lacto anyways.

Also, FWIW, my current sour got plenty sour fermenting at normal ale temperatures side by side with the yeast, but I started off with both lacto and yeast (which is what the white labs Berliner blend will give you too). So the yeast gets involved first, it "co-ferments", and then the lacto finishes off whatever it can that the yeast did not. My beer turned out dry and sour, but not overwhelmingly sour or acidic. It's really about perfect for me.

But I didn't kill the lacto and let it go until it was "done" (as in I actually secondary it, only beer in a long time I did).

Mine has no hops but heather flowers instead. But if I was using any hops it would be 7 IBUs at max.

It's gotten nice and effervescent in the bottle with age, and slightly more sour, but not overwhelmingly so.

Wish you guys had a bottle, I was going to send it to Ashville with Steve but that didn't work out.

The WLP644 sounds like my house brett except more sour. My house brett doesn't really get sour on its own, just tropical and funky.

[BlackDuck]

I think I'm going to use this GoodBelly stuff when I make mine. I wanted to fruit my Berliner anyway, and their JuiceDrink comes in some awesome flavors. I could see me using the Mango, Cranberry Watermelon or the Blueberry Acai flavors. I'll most likely do a short hop boil of some sort. I've got a batch of Pilsner to brew next, so there is a little time before I get to this one. I'll post a new recipe thread when I do start.

[BlackDuck]

While doing some more browsing during lunch today, I came across this article from The Sour Beer Blog about designing and brewing a Berliner Weiss. There's some good info here. I like the flowchart that they have here.

[FedoraDave]

All good information. I'm still going to lean heavily on the advice my LHBS guy gives me as I get closer to making this. I just feel he could really help me dial in to what I need to do based on my circumstances.

This just proves there's more than one way to brew just about any style.

[mashani]

I think I'm going to use this GoodBelly stuff when I make mine. I wanted to fruit my Berliner anyway, and their JuiceDrink comes in some awesome flavors. I could see me using the Mango, Cranberry Watermelon or the Blueberry Acai flavors. I'll most likely do a short hop boil of some sort. I've got a batch of Pilsner to brew next, so there is a little time before I get to this one. I'll post a new recipe thread when I do start.

FWIW, the traditional way to "fruit" a Berliner is to add a fruity syrup (think any kind of euro syrup like they would add as shots to coffee for flavor) to your glass of whatever flavor you like... but not really to fruit the actual Berliner.

Not saying you can't do it, but if you were in Germany and you wanted a raspberry flavored Berliner, you'd get a shot or raspberry syrup with the Berliner poured on top. The young fresh lacto sours in Belgium are served like this too. If I went to my locally owned authentic German restaurant and ordered a raspberry Berliner, that's what they would do too.

I'd do it this way just for the sake of versatility. Whatever flavor floats my boat at the moment, I can haz.