Gotta make a sour - need some guidance

[mashani]

Wow.

My plan has changed. I went to the LHBS yesterday and spoke to the guy at length about what process/technique might be best for me. I mentioned that I was considering just leaving it to the yeast to do its thing. But he said that the only problem with that is that it could be notoriously variable from one batch to the next. I might really love my first batch, and then really hate my second batch, even though I did everything as identically as I could. The vagaries of yeast.

So he mentioned that I could do the following:

Make a starter with lacto and apple juice (lacto apparently likes apple juice). Then bring my wort up to hot break and cool it down to around 80 degrees or so and add the starter until I've gotten the tartness I want. After that, bring it to a boil for ten minutes and add whatever hops I want at flame-out. Chill to 70 or so, pitch a regular German Ale yeast, and ferment at a higher-than-usual temperature.

This will give me more control over the amount of sourness/tartness, dialing it in to my personal taste. Boiling will kill the lacto, so no more activity will occur. The hop addition is minimal, and as long as I keep the IBU under 10, it won't cause problems.

So I think this is what I'll be doing. It gives me more control, and it's something I can do with my facilities/equipment.

I'm not even sure why you would do what he described instead of kettle souring, your basically doing the same thing at that point.

Also, FYI (FYI for anyone) apple juice has everything in it that regular beer yeast needs too. As in you can use apple juice to make regular yeast starters too if you want.

Also, you should use a pure lacto strain then instead of the blended strain for that initial pitch / sour then. No point in using the blended strain if your just going to kill off the sacc that comes with it. (this is probably what he told you but...)

FWIW, my experience using the blended strain in the past is that it isn't that variable as long as you are mashing and fermenting at the same temps and pitching yeast with about the same age on it. White labs and Wyeast are very careful about the ratios of lacto to hefe yeast.

And of course the downside of all of this (same with kettle sour) is you don't get any probiotic benefits. Where you do with a real sour, especially when fresh.

And, I'll just say this again for the sake of it. I see no point in kettle souring with lacto, or doing a short souring ferment with lacto and then boiling it to kill it or doing some other "'Merican" version of overlay sanitary/sanitized and highly controlled souring, vs. just using a bunch of acidulated malt to get to the PH you want to sour to. Acidulated malt *is* lacto soured. It is basically "work has been done for you by the maltster" version of the same thing, in convenient malty format. It is putting the same "stuff" into your wort, it gives you the same level of control, and you don't have to mess with bugs or temps at all. So... why not?

The idea that you will get more "complexity" when using pure lacto to kettle sour vs. that is silly. Lacto like that over that type of timeframe on its own doesn't make complexity. It makes lactic acid and alcahol. Doesn't matter what strain of lacto it is - that's what it makes. It doesn't make phenols or esters. It makes lactic acid and alcohol. It may do it slower or faster depending on temps. But that's what you will get. The only other thing you might get is dacetyl, but if it is a lot, then it typically comes from other lactic acid producing bacteria like Pedio (it makes a crap load of it which is why aging is really important if pedio is in the mix), and not any kind of lacto you will get as a pure pitch lacto strain that can do the souring job in a day or two.

Now if you are sloppy and don't pitch enough lacto then some kind of Enterobacteria might get into the mix up front and make some sort of flavor, depending on what it is and how long it works it could quite possibly be one that is nasty, before the lacto takes off, but it will die as soon as your PH goes below 4.4 or so, or you hit around 2% alcohol, whichever comes first. (that is why fermentation makes things safe, be it yeast or lacto, beer or pickles or kraut or kimchee - but also why its best to get your fermentation going quickly be it with sacc or lacto or whatever it is that you are using to make the PH/alcohol changes happen. Not holding picky lacto strains at a temp they work well at could cause this to happen too. That's why temp control if you actually do a true sour mash with the grains in the pot is pretty important, as in this case there are a whole bunch of bugs, lacto, wild yeast, all in the mix, and you are trying to favor the lacto and suppress the enterobacteria. But done right this is why an actual sour mash (not kettle sour / sanitized boiled cooled worth with a pure lacto pitch) can have increased complexity. Your letting all sorts of bugs fight it out, all of which make some bit of flavor, but maybe not very much if done right - just enough to make it "different" - but with the right type of environment to make the ones you want like lacto to win win over a short enough time to kill all the other buggersl so it stays "not too much". But if done wrong, then other bugs win more, and it might turn out as hideous tasting stuff.

But none of this is happening in what you described as a process. Your just making lactic acid and alcohol, and all the other bugs are already dead.

True "complexity" really becomes something when you talk about mixed culture sours like that 3 year sour mentioned in other posts. Stuff with lacto, pedio, brett, and sacc all mixed together in some combo and giving time to do their thing. But not quick pure lacto sours. It takes pedio 50x longer then sacc or lacto to get going and do its thing. Brett anywhere from 2x to 50x as long depending on the type and inoculation rate. (this is why lots of true bug farm sours change tremendously with long aging). And sometimes blending of batches, which is common for real aged mixed sours.

But that's not lacto. Anyone who thinks a pure lacto kettle sour or short timeframe highly controlled pure lacto ferment/boil/kill quickly because its scary or what not tastes more complex then using acidulated malt to make a sour, is imagining things. Heck you could just buy some lactic acid and add it and end up with the same results and even more control if control is your thing.

Anyways, that is my sour rant of the day LOL.

[FedoraDave]

I had forgotten that he had also mentioned acidulated malt as an option.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm going for as far as "complexity" or "true sours." I'm really just looking for something that has a clean tartness, like an apple that has more bite than sweetness.

[Inkleg]

Great write up and fantastic information Mashani.

[FedoraDave]

It is a good write-up, and I am grateful for the information.

Just a couple of thoughts, though, on why I want to go this route.

1) I don't feel my space/equipment is up to doing a true kettle sour. But if I'm basically doing the same thing, as pointed out, what's the diff?

2) I mentioned I wasn't going to use the blended strain, for that very reason. A regular German Ale yeast will be used.

3) I don't have all that much control over my fermentation temps, at any time, except when doing lagers. So I feel the method I've chosen will give me more control over the pH and the flavors.

4) I don't drink beer for the probiotic benefits.

5) The acidulated malt was suggested, but since this is my first attempt, I don't know how much to use to get the result I want. In fact, I'm not even sure of what my desired result is, but I am confident I'll know it when I taste it. By adding the lacto starter to cooled wort, I can get it to the tartness that pleases me, take a Ph reading, then stop the process by boiling. It seems to me that this will give me more control and allow me to replicate my results in future batches.

6) At this point, I'm less interested in complexity in this beer than I am about the process. It's sort of like a kid with his brand-new driver's license driving alone to the corner convenience store for the first time. It's a big deal to him, but not to the guy who's driven for 20 years, even though they're accomplishing the same thing. This truly is a test run for me. The process, as explained, makes sense to me, also, which is the most important thing for me. As this thread illustrates, there are a number of ways to accomplish a sour. Some may be more involved, or more traditional; some may be more sketchy or unpredictable. But all will get results. The level of quality in those results is, to some extent, subjective. As with so many other aspects of home brewing, it comes down to Brewer's Choice.

I'm glad I started this thread, and I'm extremely grateful for all the information people contributed to it. This is another big step for me, and since I'm making this specifically for my daughter, it carries a bit more importance than some of the other beers I make.

[BlackDuck]

Great information Mashani. Thanks a ton.

[mashani]

Hey, a couple of answers/comments:

I don't feel my space/equipment is up to doing a true kettle sour. But if I'm basically doing the same thing, as pointed out, what's the diff?

Unless I am misunderstanding and you are just leaving it in the pot (in which case you are doing a kettle sour then IMHO, just without as much total temperature control), and you simply can't put your pot with a lid on it in the same place as your fermenter would have gone to maintain whatever temp you are trying to be at, there isn't any difference. Well actually there is if you are putting it into your fermenter - if you leave it in the pot, you don't have to rack it into your fermenter, then back into the pot to boil it, then back into your fermenter, and (hopefully) sanitize/kill everything in the fermenter?

If you are leaving it in your pot the whole time then your just doing a kettle sour anyways. I consider a kettle sour to be just wort with a lacto pitch, it's not the same thing as a true sour mash, it's less complicated/finicky.

3) I don't have all that much control over my fermentation temps, at any time, except when doing lagers. So I feel the method I've chosen will give me more control over the pH and the flavors.

Just putting your pot with a lid on it wherever you would ferment normally will do this, no fermenter needed. But maybe you weren't going to use one, I don't know, I just assumed you meant you were putting it into a fermenter for the first part.

5) The acidulated malt was suggested, but since this is my first attempt, I don't know how much to use to get the result I want. In fact, I'm not even sure of what my desired result is, but I am confident I'll know it when I taste it. By adding the lacto starter to cooled wort, I can get it to the tartness that pleases me, take a Ph reading, then stop the process by boiling. It seems to me that this will give me more control and allow me to replicate my results in future batches.

Well, here is where that gets messed up. So you are doing pure lacto and tasting it right. So it ferments out nn% of your sugar and you like how it tastes right?

So you boil it and think that's how sour it's gonna be perceived at right?

If that was all there was to it and you were then kegging/force carbing it, (and then also maybe hitting it with sulfites in the keg and killing everything a second time just to be absolutely sure it's all dead for sure in there) then you have a winner.

But that's not where you are stopping. Because you are then pitching some yeast after you boil it, adding hops, etc.

So the yeast will eat up a bunch more sugar unless your PH is already so low that it kills the yeast. Assuming the yeast gets involved, it will make the wort less sweet. Which totally changes the perception of sour/bitter. If you keep your AAUs 7 or below you won't taste any bitterness from the hops, but the reduction in residual sweetness you will still notice as it being "more sour".

So to do what you are trying to do, you need to "stop" somewhere a good bit before you think it's "just right". Or it will end up "too sour".

Exactly where that is, is unpredictable without a lot of trial and error, it's much the same as the kind of unpredictability your trying to avoid.

If you want true exactness with an ale yeast in the mix, the best way would be to ferment out a wort with a German ale strain, and then just start adding lactic acid until it tastes how you want.

Otherwise a bit of adventure is always in play with sours.

Or you could just leave it as a pure lacto sour and do what I said, just taste it, boil it, keg it, sulfite it, carb it, and drink it. It will then for sure just be what you tasted.

[BlackDuck]

As for the space and temp controls mentioned above, I don't have the extra space or the ability to control to warm temps either. That's why I did the blanket temp test this past weekend. I'm going to leave it in the kettle and wrap in the blankets. So if you have a spot to put your kettle for a couple of days and a couple extra blankets laying around, then you have those two issues taken care of.


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[FedoraDave]

I've been remiss in not updating this thread.

I have brewed this beer, and am currently drinking it. It is very pleasing to me, and my daughter liked it, too. Since I brewed it at her insistence, I consider this a success. Anyway, after all the back-and-forth over what process would best suit me, I decided on the following.

First, let me say I consulted extensively with the guy at my LHBS. As it happens, he really likes sours, and after discussing things with him, and going over his various recommendations, this is what I did:

For a 2.5g batch, I used 1.5 pounds of Wheat and 1.5 pounds of Pilsner. I also got 1 pound of acidulated malt in a separate bag. I mashed the wheat and pilsner as usual, but with a water volume calculated for four pounds of grain. At the end of the 60-minute mash, I stirred in the acidulated malt and immediately collected the first runnings. Sparge as usual.

I brought the wort just to hot break, which I knocked down with a spray bottle of cold water, as I usually do. Flame-out, and add 1 ounce of Tettnang hops, which I kept in the wort throughout the cool-down process. I pitched a German ale yeast.

The result is a very nice, light beer with a sour-apple tang to it, which is very pleasing. It's not a genuine Berliner Weisse, but it's a sour beer that I enjoy. I will definitely make it again.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. It was a real education.

[Inkleg]

Uhm......just to be clear here that's not a Sour beer that you made. You made beer with sour flavoring from all the acid malt. I hope your LHBS guy who really likes Sours mentioned this.

I am glad it turned out well and that it is pleasing, but I just don't think it should be called a sour. You can get the same results with any beer and a few drops of lactic acid.

[FedoraDave]

Maybe so, but the effect is pretty much the same. The real sticking point for me was how to get the sour without fouling my Better Bottle carboys. I don't have the equipment necessary to kettle sour, and I didn't want to add lactic acid at any point prior to or during fermentation, since it would then make my carboy and any equipment dedicated sour paraphernalia. So I opted for a way to make a beer with sour flavoring, if that's what it's called.

So this raises the question: are the semantics more important than trying to get something out of your beer and being pleased with the end result? I don't open ferment in shallow rooftop troughs on the San Francisco Bay to make my California Common, either, but it's still a good representation of the style.

Or are we just arguing "po-TAY-to/po-TAH-to" here?

[swenocha]

This is all just MHO... There has been a long standing debate in brewery circles about kettle souring v. traditional souring methods and whether kettle souring is "real" souring, so debates on what is the "right" way have existed on many levels for some time. Ultimately if you like the result, then that's the ultimate decider, as it's your beer (as we say). That all being said, acidulated malt is malted barley with lactic added, so Inky is correct that by washing the grain in the wort (if I'm understanding what you described), you are doing pretty much the same thing as simply adding some lactic acid straight up as you are just washing off the lactic acid that was added to the malt. I will point out, however, that many a recipe on many a reputable site uses this malt in the mash at about 5-8ish% (most say nothing over 10%) for berliners or goses to add a sour-ish character. For example, I like this one from Michael at Mad Fermentationist and have considered going with this fairly simple recipe: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... thaca.html

So, again IMHO... this isn't potato/potatoe in the way that these are really methods that would create similar beers (as they really wouldn't... there is a lot more to traditional souring that simply adding lactic would bring to the beer, as described in many great posts and links on this thread). But, again, if it meets your tastes and that of your family, then it seems it will serve what you are going for.

[Inkleg]

Maybe so, but the effect is pretty much the same. The real sticking point for me was how to get the sour without fouling my Better Bottle carboys.

Through normal cleaing and sanitizing after use just like many, many, MANY people do. Makes no difference whether you brewed a sour or normal beer as either one can infect your next beer if equipment is not cleaned and sanitized correctly. If your BB is fouled so bad that you can't clean it after fermenting any beer either it's scratched so bad that it can't be or your doing it wrong.

don't have the equipment necessary to kettle sour,

Yes you do, you have a kettle. Next....

I didn't want to add lactic acid at any point prior to or during fermentation, since it would then make my carboy and any equipment dedicated sour paraphernalia.

See answer about cleaning and sanitizing above.

I opted for a way to make a beer with sour flavoring, if that's what it's called.

That's what I'm calling it.

this raises the question: are the semantics more important than trying to get something out of your beer and being pleased with the end result? I don't open ferment in shallow rooftop troughs on the San Francisco Bay to make my California Common, either, but it's still a good representation of the style.

Or are we just arguing "po-TAY-to/po-TAH-to" here?

I'm arguing the fact that you stared a thread asking for guidance on brewing a Sour. You received 5 pages of great responses on numerous ways to achieve what you were looking for from many well accomplished brewers. You decided to follow the advice of the owner of your LHBS, who gave you a recipe for a sour flavored beer. You say he likes sours, does he brew them? Either you didn't raise your concerns that you stated above or he doesn't understand cleaning and sanitizing (there are some professional breweries that do both normal and sour beers with the same equipment) or he couldn't sell one more BB.
You seem to have narrowed your thinking of this style and can't see past the perceived elephant in the room.

[mashani]

Although I advocated for just pitching a live Berliner blend and rolling with it (that's what I would do personally), I do have to mention this.

From what I understand and my experience Weyermann Acidualted malt is not simply malt with lactic acid added after the fact. Other stuff might be, but that particular malt doesn't seem to be.

I'm fairly sure that it's malt that was allowed to sour naturally (because all malt has lactic acid producing bugs on the husks, so they seem to just get it wet and warm and let it "rot" more or less) and then kiln it. The flavor profile is more complex then just straight up lactic acid added, it's more like a sour mash then that. But because of this, it also varies from 3.3 to 4.5 PH. If they did it artificially it could be a lot more exact, but that's not fun. But because it varies so much you can get inconsistent results if you just assume the same amount is always right for what you want and your super picky about such things. If you want consistent results then you would need to mash separately and then figure out the right amount of volume to add to get the level of sour you want / liked based on a PH test and fancy math.

But slightly inconsistent results is more or less normal with sours, so IMHO who cares about that. But for a "fake sour" or "sour flavored beer" if we want to call it that, it's not a bad choice and potentially more tasty and complex then just adding lactic acid, which is pretty boring.

Weyermann itself would say 8% acidulated malt will give you a pretty decent tasting Berliner, they published a recipe somewhere that I saw and used in the past. It was good.

Personally I'm more of an old school pitch the live bugs and walk away advocate (IE one who thinks even kettle souring is "fake" sour), but I've done some quick pseudo-sours like this with decent results in the past.

But really the Berliner blends make damn good beer and it doesn't take anywhere near as long as people think if you just keep it warm after the initial fermentation settles down, and it will develop in the bottle over time as well without exploding them too as long as you don't initially carb at stupid levels, so you don't have to tie up a fermenter for months like some people think. I'd still use one of them over kettle souring, but I'd probably also use Weyermann to make a pseudo-sour over kettle souring too, because frankly I don't see the point of kettle souring. (I'm a jerk like that LOL).

As you two (Swen, Inkleg) both know, there is no substitute for live bugs over a long period of time when it comes to things like Flanders style beers / other bug farm style beers. You just can't make those with kettle souring or pseudo-sour techniques. They take time and that's just how it is. Only thing you can get from kettle sour is lacto sour, not true bug farm type complexity. I don't see how it can be any more complex then naturally soured malt like the Weyermann, so that's why I'd just use it for a pseudo-sour.

[Dawg LB Steve]

One of this biggest reasons for boiling the wort above and beyond hop utilization is to kill off the lactobacillus produced from mashing the grain. If you've ever forgotten about your grain in the mash cooler for a day and opened the lid, you can smell the sour like it smacked you in the face.

[swenocha]

Agreed, Mashani. And I quite enjoy my kettle sour, so I don't poo-poo any process that produces a beer that has the flavors you want. It's all good IMHO.