BeerBorg

http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-ho ... itterness/

Definitely an interesting read, especially with all of the talk on here about shortening our hop boils... 77IBU with no hops in the boil!

That was an interesting article.
I have never accepted the theory that dry hopping adds no bitterness. If you put hops on your tongue, they taste bitter. Add them to a glass of water, bitter. I have restored lost bitterness to an old IPA by "bottle hopping".
But I will still generally use bittering hops in the boil.

I've keg hopped numerous beers and have definitely noticed some added bitterness but its not the same bitterness and kettle hopping.
I say do what you like and just do more of it!

Another fun article on shortened brewdays from a year or so ago...

http://brulosophy.com/2015/11/12/short- ... -brew-day/

John Sand wrote:That was an interesting article.
I have never accepted the theory that dry hopping adds no bitterness. If you put hops on your tongue, they taste bitter. Add them to a glass of water, bitter. I have restored lost bitterness to an old IPA by "bottle hopping".
But I will still generally use bittering hops in the boil.

The "logic" behind the accepted theory is based on chemistry in that the hops had to be boiled for a long time so the alpha acid compounds to isomerize, IE change into an isomeric form of the compound that would remain more stable and provide increased bitterness perception.

My experience with all the short boils / hop stands I've done for more then 2 years now, including aging a bunch of those beers for up to a year even, is that the whole thing is a bunch of hooey as far as needing to get stability in bittering.

I've also been for years commanding all my late hops because I get more out of them by doing so then if I filter them out. I can clearly taste the difference in the final product.

That is because chemistry also says your water chemistry, alcohol and ph levels and time and temperature also control what can be extracted, and make your beer a much better solvent then pure water, so you will extract all sorts of stuff out of your hops just by having them in there. Maybe your not doing the same thing as extra boil time isomerization, but my taste says that doesn't matter, I actually like my beers better with the short boil more often then if I did a traditional hop schedule.

The downside of that might be extracting flavors you aren't expecting to come from your hops if you do it some other way (IE the "grassy" you might get dry hopping a bunch of Saaz for example).

But that's as far as I can tell the only downside. If it even happens to you. I think water chemistry has a lot to do with this too.

Also, the beta acids from hops (this is accepted brewing science) and maybe the non-isomerized alpha acids (who knows) when oxidized with some age convert into a different sort of bittering compound that keeps the beer balanced. That's supposed to be why old world style beers made with noble hops as the bittering hop stay pretty much stable with age even as the isomerized aa's degrade. (remember these beers don't have hop aroma to lose, so that's not really an issue, it's mostly about not turning into disgustingly sweet liquid).

I found this interesting when I read that article just now.

Interestingly, this is about the fifth hoppy beer I’ve capped fermentation on during the later stages of fermentation and I haven’t been happy with the aromatic qualities of any of them.

As I've said a bunch of times, I just barely put my lids on, call that semi-open fermenting, my fermenters hold no pressure and vent freely... pretty much the opposite of what was described in that quote. And I pretty much have the opposite results, I'm usually happy enough with my aroma, even if I just do a lid on hop stand with a bunch of hops and don't even bother with a dry hop.

I'm not sure how to explain his OR my results, it seems it should work out the other way around...

The semi-open fermenting does increase the esteryness of the yeasts I use quite often (that is why I started to do it). It helps keep a good ester profile for fruity yeasts even though I pitch a huge amount compared to what I used to, which can suppress esters sometimes. That's why I started to do it, kind of a best of both worlds thing.

Also after reading that article, I am wondering if the short boil / less isomerized hops in my case is being balanced by the fact that I throw all those hops into my fermenter, and the humulinones are being extracted during fermentation (like they would be in a dry hop possibly) and providing that missing bitterness. Since isomerized AA's are supposed to be more bitter then non-isomerized ones.

Doesn't matter how it happens to me really, I know I like my results, my beer is plenty bitter if I want it bitter, but it's not harsh, and that's what I like.

That sounds good to me too.