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A dunkelweizen type with rye instead of wheat. I bought unmilled ingredients for a recipe I found. I've read that so much rye will suck up mash water and be somewhat slimy so I'm prepared for that. I'm going to use Wyeast German Wheat yeast, and overpitch it a little to reduce the banana. Maybe brew on the lower end of the temp. I don't like that banana component much and I'm looking for a spicy bite but not crazy. Anybody have any advice for me?

alb wrote:A dunkelweizen type with rye instead of wheat. I bought unmilled ingredients for a recipe I found. I've read that so much rye will suck up mash water and be somewhat slimy so I'm prepared for that. I'm going to use Wyeast German Wheat yeast, and overpitch it a little to reduce the banana. Maybe brew on the lower end of the temp. I don't like that banana component much and I'm looking for a spicy bite but not crazy. Anybody have any advice for me?

I've made Roggenbier a good number of times. If you use as much rye as a real Roggenbier your talking 50/60%+ of your grain bill. You need a lot of rice hulls unless you are doing FULL VOLUME BIAB and stirring the mash a good bit. Any other type of mash including a thicker mash hybrid BIAB with a sparge like lots of folks seem to do when they say they do "BIAB" is a bad idea, as your bag will become a gummy slimy ball of blargh unless you use a lot of rice hulls and stir the crap out of it.

You don't need a lot of bittering hops, too much will wreck it, better too little then too much.

That much rye is quite spicy and provides its own bitter edge. It is OK to suppress the banana, but IMHO some banana, even if just slight, belongs in a roggenbier, and if you suppress it so much by lowering the temp as well as over pitching, then not only are you lowering the banana amount, but increasing the spicy phenolic component. If you increase the spicyness of the yeast a lot, you might get something very spicy and potentially unpleasant (unless you really like really spicy / very clovey beer)

Instead of doing that if you don't like banana, I would suggest using a yeast like Wyeast Bavarian Wheat (3638), as it doesn't make as much banana and adds other fruit such as pear and apple to the ester mix, and throws off some vanilla like flavor too that complements the fruit and mellows out the spicy cloves. You can still overpitch a bit and get rid of a lot of the banana, and you will still get the other esters as long as you don't ferment too cool. I think the best Roggenbier to my tastes I ever made was with that yeast.

That's what I can tell you.

I've made a couple of "Roggenbiers".

The first a more German style with 50/50 Munich/Rye. Bittering hops only. Wheat yeast.

The second an "American" version with 50/50 PaleAle/Rye. Bittering hops only. US05.

Everyone loved both of these.

mashani wrote:

alb wrote:A dunkelweizen type with rye instead of wheat. I bought unmilled ingredients for a recipe I found. I've read that so much rye will suck up mash water and be somewhat slimy so I'm prepared for that. I'm going to use Wyeast German Wheat yeast, and overpitch it a little to reduce the banana. Maybe brew on the lower end of the temp. I don't like that banana component much and I'm looking for a spicy bite but not crazy. Anybody have any advice for me?

I've made Roggenbier a good number of times. If you use as much rye as a real Roggenbier your talking 50/60%+ of your grain bill. You need a lot of rice hulls unless you are doing FULL VOLUME BIAB and stirring the mash a good bit. Any other type of mash including a thicker mash hybrid BIAB with a sparge like lots of folks seem to do when they say they do "BIAB" is a bad idea, as your bag will become a gummy slimy ball of blargh unless you use a lot of rice hulls and stir the crap out of it.

My grain bill will have about 45% rye, 1/4 pound (about 2%) of rice hulls. I can add more if I have to. I have a Grainfather so after a multi-step mash, the malt pipe is lifted out and allowed to drain and the sparge water is added to the top of the grain bed as it continues to drain through. No gummy bag to deal with.

Thanks for the advice, especially about the yeast. I was going to get the German wheat yeast but now I think I'll use the Bavarian. And since temp is easier for me to control than pitch rate, that's what I'll use to influence the banana/clove balance. I think I'll thin the mash out and stir the crap out of it to avoid the slimy blargh!