Baseline Berliner Weiss

[Kealia]

I'm getting in on the sour fun soon. Between the recent threads, my own preference for sour beers and our recent trip to a brewery that served a Lilikoi Berliner Weiss that my wife loved I need to brew one myself. We have a lot of syrups ranging from raspberry to huckleberry that are used for sodas that will be used to flavor the beer in each glass. We also have the ability to use fresh fruit juice so this will give us the ability to play around a bit.

After some reading, thinking and discussing with a couple of guys who think they know something about sours ( ), I've decided on the following plan. This is heavily based on the details from a thread on HBT from 2016 that has good reviews for the recipe/process.

Batch size 3G (because I have a 3G carboy somewhere that will be perfect for this)
2.25 lbs of Wheat DME
Omega Lactobacillus Blend (OYL605)
Nottingham dry yeat (2 packs)

OG: 1.033
IBUs: 0

And it goes a little something like this:
1) Make a 100g/1L starter for the Omega Lacto blend 48 hours before brewday. No stirplate, put on an airlock and just leave it alone anywhere between 70 - 90F.

2) Brewday - Heat water to 200f, add DME and stir until its all dissolved. Cool the batch down to 90F, rack to carboy and pitch Lacto starter.

(This is why I am using the carboy instead of kettle-souring in the actual kettle)

*Very Important - you need to be very careful not to oxygenate the wort or this could ruin the beer. To limit oxygen exposure use a smaller fermenter, or up the batch size, so that the fermenter is filled completely full leaving only about an inch of headspace between the wort and airlock. OYL605 doesn't krausen so don't be worried.

3) Leave fermenter in the 70-90F range for 24-72 hours, depending on how sour a beer you want. I plan to use PH strips to target about 3.3. Once sourness has been achieved, rack back to the kettle and pasteurize for 30mins at 180F (I'll likely raise to boil, then let it sit - not boiling just cooling naturally for 30 minutes but staying above 180F).

4) Cool to normal temp, pitch plenty of healthy yeast, and proceed like any other beer.

A couple notes:
- I would just pitch the Lacto in my kettle, but I would have too much headspace as I have a 10G kettle, so even a 5G batch would leave a lot of headroom plus I have no way of using my Thermowell and heater with my kettle (although I know BlackDuck was able to hold temps with blankets around his kettle so that is an option in the future if I want to do a bigger batch)
- I plan to flush the carboy with CO2 before and after filling it. I plan to fill to the neck so there will be very little headspace.
- I've also read that dropping the wort to 4.5 before pitching the Lacto is helpful:

Pre-acidification of the wort to pH 4.5 using a food grade acid (lactic or phosphoric) will do wonders in inhibiting other bacterial strains that may be present such as enteric bacteria. This acidification will also hamper the action of an enzyme lactobacillus uses to break down proteins, so your resulting beer will still showcase all the head retention and body that you would expect from the same beer fermented with only Saccharomyces.

-I plan on pitching 2 packets of Nottingham because of the ph of the wort. 1 packet is *likely* enough for a 3G batch, but 2 packets isn't a sever overpitch given the circumstances so I should be fine

That's it. Once done, it should be a simple Berliner to use as a base for future tweaks and for testing the various syrups we have - along with drinking it straight.
From the notes/feedback on this recipe/process, I'll end up with a beer that darker than style guidelines dictate, but as the author noted - it's a trade-off in terms of convenience and ease. If this works out well, I'll do an all-grain batch in the future.

The only thing I need to play with now is the ph of the wort. I don't see a way to enter DME into EZ Water (which is my go-to tool) so I'll need to do some searching to determine how to get the ph of my wort since I don't have a ph meter (and don't plan to buy one at this time). I do have testing strips but assuming I come in around 5.5 or so, I may have to do some guess-work to see how much lactic acid to add to drop down to 4.5 - although I'm wondering if I just enter the DME as regular malts in EZ Water if that won't give me what I need.

The author of this recipe didn't drop his ph to 4.5 (I read that elsewhere) so if I can't do that step, I won't worry about it one bit.
My ingredients have been ordered since MoreBeer doesn't carry Omega yeast. I have to sit and wait for them to show up (sometime before 6/20 according to my order update).

More to come, but open to discussion and questions/input as always.

[BlackDuck]

Wow...looks like you've got this covered. I'll be interested on how it comes out. The recipe/process your following just sounds too easy to be true, but sound like it very successful. If it really is that easy, I may just give this a whirl sometime too.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Very interesting and detailed post thank you for sharing. We had a 'Sour Power' event at our last meeting where someone explained how they kettle sour. It's good to know someone like yourself who has another way of doing things.

[mashani]

A tiny bit of bittering hops added at some point will not hurt the beer and might help suppress other bugs and help keep it shelf stable longer. ~4-5 AAU and it won't change the overall perception. Every Berliner I've ever made had a tiny bit of bittering hops. (then again it was also not kettle soured, but truly fermented with a mixed culture).

Unless I am reading this process wrong, I don't see how "how sour you want" at that point is relevant whatsoever, because when the yeast eat up all the remaining sugar, it's going to seem more sour when it's done. You won't be able to really judge the final product by that experience without... well.. experience. After 24-48 hours, there is going to be a lot of sugars left in the wort, no way the lacto is going to chew them all up that fast. What am I missing?

[Kealia]

Very interesting and detailed post thank you for sharing. We had a 'Sour Power' event at our last meeting where someone explained how they kettle sour. It's good to know someone like yourself who has another way of doing things.

If this works, I can't take credit for it. I picked up the recipe/process from a link Inkleg gave me to an HBT thread.

But I will certainly post updates as I go along.

[Kealia]

A tiny bit of bittering hops added at some point will not hurt the beer and might help suppress other bugs and help keep it shelf stable longer. ~4-5 AAU and it won't change the overall perception. Every Berliner I've ever made had a tiny bit of bittering hops. (then again it was also not kettle soured, but truly fermented with a mixed culture).

I thought about that and two things left me at the decision to NOT add hops on this first batch:
1) The recipe doesn't call for it
2) I have no baseline to tell if adding hops makes a difference or not (not that I don't trust your input, mind you)

Unless I am reading this process wrong, I don't see how "how sour you want" at that point is relevant whatsoever, because when the yeast eat up all the remaining sugar, it's going to seem more sour when it's done. You won't be able to really judge the final product by that experience without... well.. experience. After 24-48 hours, there is going to be a lot of sugars left in the wort, no way the lacto is going to chew them all up that fast. What am I missing?

You aren't missing anything. And I am thinking exactly what you posted - that however sour it is when I decide to kill the Lacto, it will get MORE sour once the Nottingham eats the rest of the sugar. Much like a BU:GU ratio. So, my target is around 3.3 based on what I've read. If the final product is n't as sour as I want, then I know to go lower next time - or vice versa. But, I like my sours sour and I won't mind if I go past tart to sour on this.

Anybody have thoughts on the wort ph?

[mashani]

If you are concerned about the yeast, Nottingham should be OK at 3.3. I've used it to make cider and it was 3.2 or something like that when it started. 3.3-3.7 in the final product with the lactic acid present is pretty much the normal range for a Berliner. You don't want it so sour that it's just *fooking sour* and that's all you can taste until you add some syrup or what not. You are supposed to be able to taste the wheaty grainy malt vibe kind of like "really sour sour dough". That's how you can tell (IMHO) if it's a good Berliner or just a sour beer like some 'Merican breweries make.

I think the PH will actually go up from where you start once you add the Notty, so I think 3.3 will put you in the right ballpark somewhere.

As for the hops, you don't "need" them but just like in sour Belgians, a very small amount is normally used just to help make sure that all that is fermenting the beer is the lacto and the yeast and not other things, and also to slightly suppress the sour bugs until the yeast get a bit of a foothold to achieve whatever balance the maker is looking for (how much would depend on the lacto strain being pitched and how sensitive it is to the AAUs). But that again is with a mixed culture more traditional made beer, not a pure pitch lacto "modern" style kettle sour followed by killing the lacto and then a pure yeast pitch.

If you do use them in a future batch, for this method I'd add them after the lacto does it's kettle sour thing, when you are bringing the wort up to 200 or boiling or what not in order to kill the lacto/before you pitch the yeast. And I would make sure it's < 7 AAU or else it will add noticeable bitterness that is not supposed to be there.

Traditional mixed culture Berliners aren't even boiled. Dr. Fritz Briem of Doemens Institute's 1809 Berliner is a good example of a traditional not ever boiled mixed culture Berliner. Whole Foods sometimes has that around here.

[Kealia]

If you are concerned about the yeast, Nottingham should be OK at 3.3.[\quote]
I'm not worried about that, from all I've read it will be fine (as you've said). What I was referring to was the ph of the wort before pitching the Lacto. I think I'm over-thinking this a bit, trying to figure out what the ph of the DME wort will be. But, since DME is made from an AG start, I'm now thinking that if I enter the AG grain components into EZ Water, it should give me the same ph whether it's DME or AG - anybody agree or disagree with that? I do have ph strips that I can use to measure, but I'd like to get my head around how much lactic acid I'll need to bring it down to 4.5 ahead of time if I can.

If you do use them {hops} in a future batch, for this method I'd add them after the lacto does it's kettle sour thing, when you are bringing the wort up to 200 or boiling or what not in order to kill the lacto/before you pitch the yeast. And I would make sure it's < 7 AAU or else it will add a noticeable bitterness that is not supposed to be there.[\quote]
That is inline with my thinking, thanks for confirming. I've also seen a few people mention a dry hop of Nelson (when they started to experiment) with good results.

Traditional mixed culture Berliners aren't even boiled. Dr. Fritz Briem of Doemens Institute's 1809 Berliner is a good example of a traditional not ever boiled mixed culture Berliner. Whole Foods sometimes has that around here.

Cool. I have a Whole Foods nearby. I'll check and see if they have one. And that being the case, I'll not boil this and just take it to 180 or 200 for 30 minutes to pasteurize and kill the lacto.

Damn forum software is somehow adding more closed quote code so it's nesting the responses. I'll BOLD my responses.

[Kealia]

Looks like I should get my shipment on Tuesday. So I can make my starter then and "brew" on Thursday.
That gives me until Sat or Sun to do the "second brew" and put the fermentor away by the end of the weekend with any luck.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[mashani]

But, since DME is made from an AG start, I'm now thinking that if I enter the AG grain components into EZ Water, it should give me the same ph whether it's DME or AG - anybody agree or disagree with that?

Well, I don't think it's quite as simple as that, because the DME is buffered with and contains whatever minerals/and such were in the water it was made from, so they will end up in your water and tweak it a bit. I don't know that there is a way to find out what those were. So I think just to be safe you should measure it. I doubt it will be crazy far off, but it might be a little bit different then if you did it yourself from an AG perspective.

I think once you measure once, then as long as you are using the same brand/type of DME it will probably work out the same.

I could be nuts though.

[That is inline with my thinking, thanks for confirming. I've also seen a few people mention a dry hop of Nelson (when they started to experiment) with good results.

I've never dry hopped one, but I'm not opposed to the idea, especially with something like Nelson or Citra because why not?

And that being the case, I'll not boil this and just take it to 180 or 200 for 30 minutes to pasteurize and kill the lacto.

I don't see any reason for you to boil it, but I don't see any reason not to either. I think it's just a matter of "whatever you feel like".

Just to be clear, in a traditional one you'd mash the pilsner/wheat in a step mash with a glucan/protein rest, then sacc rest(s), and then heat that whole mixture up to near/just at boiling temps, and then cut the heat. Then just let it chill, and then pitch the mixed culture. Or back in the old days it was probably also like a lambic, as in put it in an already well inoculated barrel that made good beer before (barrels that started to make bad beer = firewood or what not), and some Brett was probably in the mix back then at least sometimes because of that, but because it would be consumed very fresh weird bugs that make foul flavors at first like pedio wouldn't get into the mix before it was consumed, and the Brett wouldn't have had a lot of time to funkify it.

In a traditional method the lacto never dies, if you get a bottle of that 1809 stuff it's likely going to have live bugs in it, it's probably a good beer to use the dregs of in a mixed aged sour later.

People always read about the traditional no boil way with the 50%ish pilsner, and think "DMS SOUP", but it doesn't happen for whatever reason.

I see no reason why it would happen with DME either.

[Kealia]

My local Whole Foods doesn't carry that beer, rats.


Yesterday my Lacto arrived so I made my starter. 1L @ 1.040, chilled to about 90 and Lacto tossed in.
No stirplate, just an airlock, and the flask is wrapped in towels in a small cooler to hold close to temp for the next 48 hours.
Thursday, I'll whip up the DME and pitch the Lacto into my 3G glass carboy with as little headspace as possible.
It will sit at about 95 degrees after I drop the ph using lactic acid to about 4.5.

Fingers crossed.

[Kealia]

I got home from work today and "brewed" up the base wort for the starter to go into.
I heated 3G water to ~200, tossed in the DME to get to 1.030 SG, cooled to 90 then pitched the 1L starter of Lacto.

I topped up as much as I could to avoid excess headspace (based on recommendations/reading) and put my Thermowell in to control temps using the STC_1000+.

I'll check the ph on Saturday afternoon and if I'm down in the 3.5 range I'll either take step 3 or wait another 24 hours to see if it gets lower and do it on Sunday. In any case, it's weird to spend less than an hour on a batch.

Fingers still crossed for a positive outcome.

[mashani]

I'm not really sure why they are so concerned about headspace. Although oxygen might suppress lacto a bit at first, all that will happen in response is that a pellicle would form as a defense if it really becomes a problem for the beasties. That's what a pellicle is for.

And since you are going to pitch yeast later, it's going to take care of any other oxygen in there during the growth phase.

If you were kettle souring you'd likely have a huge amount of headspace.

So unless they just think potentially seeing a pellicle is scary, I don't know what.

?

(if I though seeing a pellicle was scary, I'd be throwing away a lot of beer in the summer LOL).

[Inkleg]

The exposure to oxygen might promote the growth of enterobacter bacteria before the lacto does its souring. So keeping oxygen to a minimum either by purging the kettle with CO2 and covering the wort with Saran Wrap or a little head space as possible is critical during the souring phase. Done right the lacto will produce a clean sour taste. Done wrong enterobacter will produce a vomit smell/taste.

[Kealia]

IIRC, it had to do with not allowing some other bacteria to take hold instead of the Lacto - but I can't recall now.
If you're saying that oxygen isn't really a big deal, then I won't be nervous opening the lid to take a ph sample later today. I was going to wait until tomorrow because I figure it would be closer to being done at that point and I would move to the boil after that. If the only thing I could have to worry about would be a pellicle then I won't worry at all.

I believe the recommendations I've seen all mention reducing headspace. That's the only reason that I went to a carboy instead of keeping it in the kettle. Well, other than being able to keep the temp at 90 in my carboy, but more reading since I started shows that this yeast will sour down to about 68 without issue - just a bit slower.

Which makes me wonder: If this was soured in the kettle and a pellicle formed, would the correct course of action to be to just boil the pellicle or to scoop it out with a spoon before boiling? I would assume you'd want to remove it, but I'm learning as I go here in terms of Lacto.

NOTE: Inky posted while I was typing.