Experiment, cold sparge and 30 min boil

[teutonic terror]

Hello BORG
this is my latest undertaking as far as brewing goes...
doing an impromptu mid week brewing session, I was trying
to minimize time and if this turns out well, I may try out
a 30 min mash next.

Started at 2:25 Wed. afternoon, if my outside hose hadn't frozen up
I would have had it in the bucket and all the cleanup done before 5:30.

Looking for the line where I can cut time and still produce a quality product...

Thoughts?


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blondi B cold sparge 30
Brewer: JohnEC
Asst Brewer:
Style: Blonde Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.36 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.26 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 4.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.0 %
Boil Time: 30 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7.20 gal City Water Water 1 -
1.00 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 94.7 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
0.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [11.00 %] - Boil 20.0 m Hop 5 13.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.40 %] - Boil 10.0 m Hop 6 8.9 IBUs
0.25 oz Citra [14.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 5.2 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 mins) Fining 8 -
0.25 oz Citra [14.30 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 2.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [14.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
2.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast 11 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 11.88 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.35gal, 3.18gal) of 123.0 F water
Notes:
------
First 30 minute boil recipe...
easy one to do...
also "cold" sparge...not terribly cold as water is 123F.

Both sparges timed at 10 minutes...
First sparge was very "milky" looking...never cleared up.
Second sparge also...

Had to no chill...outside hose is frozen
Wort was 69F at 3:30 A.M.
More concerned about volume than anything else, wasn't sure
how to figure boiloff accurately, so I used my hourly boiloff
rate for 60 min batches.

Will pitch yeast and measure gravity this afternoon around 2:30.


Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Beer-lord]

I've read alot lately about cold sparging and it does appear (based on the Brulosophy experiment) that you can't tell any difference. Same thing with the 30 minute boil. They also do a 30 minute sparge. I guess there are some types of beer where some of this may matter but recently someone one a gold medal at a regional competition doing just this. Me personally, I would think the 30 minute boil would be less noticeable than the 30 minute mash but I'm interested in how this comes out.

[Dawg LB Steve]

Most conversion is done in the first 10 minutes from what I have gathered. An easy way to figure that out would be do a 60 minute mash, pull a gravity sample at 30, 40,50 and at 60. Gravity points will tell you for sure where it stops converting. My two cents!

[John Sand]

I generally mash for 45, boil for 45.

[teutonic terror]

Alright, I transferred the beer to the fermentor and not surprisingly, I came up
1/2 gallon short, so I need to recalculate my boil off for smaller batches.

The most surprising thing to me is it came in two points under SG even at 1/2 gallon short.
Figured it woulda been a little higher.

I'm not terribly disappointed because,
(1) it was an experiment and even if the attenuation
comes in at 74% by Beersmith I'll still have a 4.3 beer
(2) The whirlpool hops sat in the kettle for 22 hrs so
the beer has amazing aroma at this point
(3) I made beer!

Any observations are welcome...

Update in a few days because this should be a grain to glass in ten or so days brew!
Curious myself how good this is gonna turn out.

[Beer-lord]

22 hour whirlpool? Well, that's pretty much like a fast dry hop but did you calculate how many IBU's that whirlpool turned out to be?

[bpgreen]

If you're looking for ways to shorten your brew day, an overnight mash can really save time. The key to a successful overnight March is being able to ensure that it doesn't drop below a certain temperature. I forget what that temperature is, but if it gets cool enough, undesirable bacteria can start in on it. With an overnight mash, you can start the sparge as soon as you get up.

So you save the time of heating the mash water and the mash time. I did one recently with the mash and boil, which made it simple to maintain temperature overnight.

[Kealia]

Whoa, I never even thought about an overnight mash. Just read an Exbeeriment on that too - just for more information.
This would save even more time....I may have to try that!

[mashani]

Whoa, I never even thought about an overnight mash. Just read an Exbeeriment on that too - just for more information.
This would save even more time....I may have to try that!

If you want to go totally nuts, do this, but throw in some hops, set the mash at 150, and figure ~5% utilization per hour compared to a 60 minute boil, ultimately maxing out at the same IBUs as if you boiled for 90 minutes if you leave it in there long enough, but it won't be that many because you won't even for overnight. Unless you buy some "steam hops". (google those, they are $spendy but they will give you more IBUs without boiling at all). Just use high AA hops in enough quantity to get what you want. Best for something like a pale ale or IPA if using very flavorful hops, because you will get a good bit of it, but something without intense flavor/aroma can work well in other kinds of beer, IE a proportionally largish amount of Haleratu Blanc worked great in my polish smoked beer.

Then just pull your basket in the AM, throw in some more hops for flavor/aroma if you like, put the lid on and let it stay at 150 for an hour more to murder any bugs that got in while you did that, and then just chill it, put it in the fermenter, throw in some more hops if you like then as a dry hop later. I slow chilled mine, but it should be OK to use a chiller too as long as you make sure you sanitize it properly. Maybe sanitize it and then leave it in there for the hour at 150 to be sure...

Then you will have done an extended version of my "raw beer experiment" yourself, which I have done 3 times with excellent result every time. My mashes have never gone more then 6 hours for those, but I don't see how overnight would hurt.

Just don't heat it up above 158, or you will start to produce DMS. The mash & boil set to 150 at 1000 watts should never go above 153 or there about, so it works perfectly.

[bpgreen]

I forgot about doing the no boil combined with the overnight mash. I tried that once but haven't tried the final result yet.

It may be much more bitter than I intended it to be because I used BeerSmith's calculation instead of posting attention to what mashani told me.

I think the overnight mash may also give you a more fermentable wort.

[bpgreen]

I forgot about doing the no boil combined with the overnight mash. I tried that once but haven't tried the final result yet.

It may be much more bitter than I intended it to be because I used BeerSmith's calculation instead of posting attention to what mashani told me.

I think the overnight mash may also give you a more fermentable wort.

[mashani]

Beersmith just doesn't seem to understand whirlpools longer then 2 hours, the calculation just seems to stop there, at least it is working that way for me. Because nobody in their right mind would do a whirlpool longer then that. I'm just "weird". Also you have to make sure to set whirlpool temp right, by default it will be too high and show you way more utilization then letting it sit at 150 if doing the long mash + hop + no boil thing.

I don't know if more fermentable, it maybe true if the beta amylase whacks apart the bigger sugars given enough time (glucoamylase would do it, not sure about beta amylase), but I've seen iodine tests pictures on the internet where people experimented where the result was "done" (as in not black) at 60 minutes (and maybe even before that, lots of conversion happens really quickly to the point where its "good enough" much sooner, IE the 30 minute mash people), but then at 120 it was "more done" (as in an even clearer color as if a "haze" was removed from it), and at 180 even more done then that (quite pure color).

So there apparently is some small amount of starch still in there that can get converted, even after it is "done" by a normal standard of what an iodine test looks like. That or something else weird goes on, but I don't know what that would be.

I don't know if it's enough to gain you a gravity point or not. Maybe?

[teutonic terror]

22 hour whirlpool? Well, that's pretty much like a fast dry hop but did you calculate how many IBU's that whirlpool turned out to be?

I put the figures in Beersmith, one ounce of Citra 14.2% at 1320 minutes and it came out 31.9 IBU's
which pushes the bitterness way out of Pale Ale territory, but as a whole the brew is not quite an IPA.
I've decided to label this Experimental Beer in Beersmith since it doesn't quite fit any specific style...
I did like the aroma I was getting when I transferred it and I didn't think about it being a fast dry hop...
if it turns out well might be another tool in the arsenal instead of an actual prolonged dry hop...

If you're looking for ways to shorten your brew day, an overnight mash can really save time. The key to a successful overnight March is being able to ensure that it doesn't drop below a certain temperature.

I'm using a cheap 48 qt plastic cooler that with a preheat does very well on short (60 min) mashes but I
know it wouldn't hold above 140F for 12 hours. The reason I use 140F is from smoking meat, there is a
danger zone of holding meat below 140F for four hours or more that allows bacteria to multiply rapidly,
just assuming the same concept applies here. I'm looking into a 10 gallon Rubbermaid water cooler in the
future that would help alot in this situation.

So, I got up this morning thinking some more about this and the next logical step IMHO is to adjust my water
volumes and since my efficiency was only 59.2%, down from my default 68%, do my regular 170F sparge to see if that puts me back around 68%.

[Kealia]

Is throwing in hops during an overnight mash needed for anti-microbial reasons or just something you did as part of the raw/no boil experiment?

If I were to do this I would have planned holding at around 150 or 153 overnight, then pulling the basket in the morning and proceeding as normal with a 60-monute boil and addition (assuming that is what I had planned that day).

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[bpgreen]

I threw the hops in during the overnight mash so it would be like a really long whirlpool addition. So it was part of the no boil ed experiment. As long as you don't let the temperature drop below 140 ( I think teutonic terror had that right) you don't need to worry about infection.