Hop suggestions for pale lager

[swenocha]

I've had good success with making lagers or kolschs that a) i enjoy drinking, and b) are popular with the BMC crowd. Pretty much use a Rolling Rock recipe from BYO and change up hops and yeast and such to suit. This time, i'm considering a recipe similar in nature for the spring, but thinking of bumping to 6% (i usually do 4%, but the new equipment gives me more flexibility) and burning off hops on hand instead of buying traditional nobles. So, easy peasy recipe that consists of a 10lb 2 row bag on hand, 2 lbs of flaked corn or rice, and some lager yeast TBD.

So... here are the hops on hand...

6oz Jarrylo
6oz Challenger
1oz Northern Brewer
0.5oz Perle (per-lay...)

Thoughts on a hop schedule? Experience with these hops?

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[mashani]

Jarrylo tastes like a noble hop with some bananas on top. I've used it in Saisons and Belgians and liked it in those. It's not *in your face* banana but it is there.

Perle will also work fine, it's also like a noble hop, except with a bit of mint added.

Northern Brewer work, but it is a bit more rough edged flavor wise compared to the ones above (it would end up sort of like if you used Perle but with a noticeable woodiness added to it). Think Anchor Steam. It will have a profile that ends up similarish to that if you use the Northern Brewer.

Challenger would also work, but like Northern Brewer it's slightly more rough edged flavor wise (I believe Northern Brewer is actually a parent of it) which is why it's mostly used as a bittering or dry hop in British beers vs. a late boil addition. It has some nice aroma properties as a dry hop without the "edge".

You could really mix and match them, using one of the last 2 as bittering hops, and one of the others as a flavor/aroma hop and it would turn out nice, depending on what you want.

[BlackDuck]

I would go with the per-lay...just because!!!


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[MadBrewer]

I really like Northern Brewer, good AA's for bittering. Firm, but not aggressive. Flavor wise, I haven't really experienced the woody, or even minty that sources claim they can have. I would describe them as more Earthy, like if an English hop like Fuggles or EKG were trying to be more like a noble German Hop. I think they could be great in what you have in mind. For something near 6%, a mix of the NB and Perle for bittering and .25 -.5 oz of NB for flavor and aroma additions depending on how much you want in there or even NB for bittering and a mix of the Perle and NB for flavor and aroma additions. At most I describe NB as having just a bit more rustic edge to them, perfect for Steam Beer, Classic American Pilsner...NB seems maybe something more similar to Cluster hops.

[Beer-lord]

Oddly enough, with all the hops I have and have had, I never have tried Jarrylo or Challenger yet. Personally, I'm not crazy about NB or Perle so I'd just visit my LHBS and buy some C hops and 'real' hops.

[swenocha]

I would go with the per-lay...just because!!!


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I actually changed the Beersmith Perle entry to read that way after that outing... yes, just because...

[mashani]

I really like Northern Brewer, good AA's for bittering. Firm, but not aggressive. Flavor wise, I haven't really experienced the woody, or even minty that sources claim they can have. I would describe them as more Earthy, like if an English hop like Fuggles or EKG were trying to be more like a noble German Hop. I think they could be great in what you have in mind. For something near 6%, a mix of the NB and Perle for bittering and .25 -.5 oz of NB for flavor and aroma additions depending on how much you want in there or even NB for bittering and a mix of the Perle and NB for flavor and aroma additions. At most I describe NB as having just a bit more rustic edge to them, perfect for Steam Beer, Classic American Pilsner...NB seems maybe something more similar to Cluster hops.

NB tastes/smells not very much like Cluster hops to me. Cluster hops have a very noticeable "berry" vibe, that some people who are sensitive to would think of as "cat piss" where NB has none of that. I am luckily not one of those "cat piss" people but some people are. They would be the true authentic Steam Beer hop from back in the day though. I made an authentic old style California Common with them as well as some classic American lagers, and although I found them all to be ok, my "cat piss" sensitive friends couldn't drink them. I much prefer NB in those styles, and my "cat piss" friends do as well.

Also I don't think NB tastes/smells like Fuggles at all. I love Fuggles and Styrian Goldings, but would never consider replacing them with NB in a recipe that I wanted to really turn out the same. Tthat said, if I was comparing Fuggles / EKG to NB / Noble hops, I would say that Fuggles to English hops are like NB to German hops... if you are considering the the EKG being the "noble" hop of the pairing on the English side. Not that they are the "same" but that would be how I'd break them down from a "how they stand compared to one another" perspective. If that makes sense. Maybe that's what you were trying to say anyways. You can replace noble hops pretty much directly in many Belgian beers with Styrian Goldings or EKG and have them turn out great. Where Fuggles is tricker, it can become more overpowering. Where EKG, it's almost impossible to ruin a beer with it no matter how much you use.

The NB mint/woodiness comes through as late boil (flavor/aroma) additions, not when used for bittering. Same for perle's minty vibe. Some yeasts will bring it out more, some yeasts will cover it up more, so YMMV there because of that too. It is very possible that what I am calling woody could be perceived as earthy depending on how the yeast plays against it.

[MadBrewer]

I am certainly no super taster when it comes to hops. I think I have a better sense for malt flavors than hops but that's just how I perceive them. Not indicating they are so similar that they are interchangeable, just something to reference for comparison when descriptors dont do justice. Just goes to show everyone has different tastes because I never got berry out of Cluster, yet alone a strong berry character. I do get the catty thing with certain hops but that is more aroma than flavor. When I do get it its in the aroma with dank in the flavor. Another weird one is Citra...some get mango, I get pure dank cat piss.

[mashani]

My cluster hating "cat piss" friends actually like Citra quite a lot, they get lots of citrus and tropical fruit from them. You must be a super smeller/taster of very different things then them. Everyone is different in that way. My "cat piss" friends would react the same to currents, it's specifically that sort of berry vibe that triggers them. They don't like beers I make with Strisselspalt hops much either for the same reason, even though I love them.

I love Citra, and don't think of them as particularly dank. Now something like Apollo hops... those put out a huge dope resin vibe for me, they are like Simcoe on crack. I happen to like that, but I'm sure some people don't. I actually prefer IPAs that have a strong dank/earthy/piney/dopey background against the citrus. Single hopped beers, I really like Simcoe for example, and also Apollo for the same reason. I like either of those + citra as a mix very much. I'm less of a fan of pure citrus/"juice" IPAs. I like my Belgians with spicy/earthy hops + fruity estery yeast for the same reason.

I think this really different perception of things is why those sensory kits are probably so important for people who are going to try to judge beers. It helps to figure out what a "thing" tastes/smells like to you as an individual so you can pick them out and give them the same name as someone else. Otherwise one persons catty is another persons grapefruit or fuzzy tropical mango or what not.

[MadBrewer]

Oh I still get big citrus and fruit from those kinds of hops. I love Citra but the catty thing is usually right there with it. So many hops I haven't tried, this summer I am thinking of brewing more smaller batches to experiment more.

[swenocha]

I love an active fermentation....



Went with Challenger as the hop selection.

#117: Pale Lager
MALTS
10 lb. two-row pale malt (83.3%)
1 lb. flaked maize (8.3%)
1 lb. flaked rice (8.3%)
HOPS
1 oz. Challenger [7.5%] @ 60 min (23.6 IBU)
1 oz. Challenger [7.5%] @ 10 min (8.6 IBU)
2 oz. Challenger [7.5%] @ 0 min
YEAST
WLP800 Pilsner Lager (Pilsner Urquell)

OG: 1.062
Est ABV: 6.2%
IBU: 32
SRM: 3.8

[mashani]

That's perhaps more almost like a British hop flavored IPL, at least flavor wise...

[swenocha]

Realizing I never updated on these recent recipes... not sure that anyone but me would care, but I'll update for my own sake regardless. This is quite good. I left it in fermenter much longer than anticipated do to a combination of running out of CO2 and then following that up with the need to clear out the remainder of the English pale keg. COVID kind of wrecked getting some of that beer and the brown ale getting drunk by anyone other than me and also delayed me getting the CO2, so it was pretty slow going getting this one moved, and as such this one was in primary something like 5-6 weeks. I kept considering moving it to secondary, but it kept feeling like the keg was so very close to kicking so I didn't. Regardless, I don't think it suffered ill effects. The hops are not IPL levels or anything. Just a nice balanced lager with a decent bitter and some pine and a bit of fruit on the flavor end. Very smooth and drinkable. As we've opened up here and had people over the last two weekends (shhhhh.....) we've been tearing thru this keg, so I probably should look at another brew day. I harvested the Urquell yeast, so another lager may be in order (I only have S-04 and US-05 otherwise). So either a repeat of this with different hops (but maybe with some 15L or something to give it a bit of color and to mix up the flavor a touch), or a pale ale with a similar grain bill.

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