BeerBorg

I do mostly steeps with and extract. I believe I read somewhere at one time you should do the hop boil with about a pound of DME or the equivalent LME. That is what I do. I am beginning to question why? When you do an all grain you boil the full wort for the hop boil.

What are the cons to doing a full dme/lme boil, or did I just misinterpret?

One of the primary cons of a full-volume extract boil is darkening. The longer you boil extract, the darker it becomes. Makes it tough to brew light-colored beers, if that's what's desired.

CC is right on regarding the darkening effect (malliard reaction).

When I do a five gallon batch, I generally boil about 3.5 gallons with 2.5-3 pounds od DME/LME.

The goal is to try to maximize hop utilization regardless of where in the boil you add them.

So, I try to target a specific gravity for the boil of about 1.035-1.045 which seems to work for me.

There is a hop utilization chart on the web somewhere that shows specific gravity along the top contrasted with time along the left... I believe that is where I found that tidbit and it has worked out well for me.

When using brewing software, I adjust the boil size accordingly, and set the remaining top off water, allowing for evaporation during the boil...

And I assign some of the DME/LME to the biol, and the rest to Late Boil.

Works good...

when i do a 60 min boil with dme/lme(ume), assuming it's not a dark beer. i use only half my ume for the hour and add the other half @10 min. it is still darker than it should be but way closer.

All you need is a wort between 1.03ish to 1.04ish to get the best hop utilization. Anything else you can add at the end. Like Big Papa G said. That will get you the lightest color possible with the best hop utilization possible.

I've only done two extract (non-Mr. Beer, using extract, steeping grains, and hops) recipes - doing a 3rd this morning - but I see one roadblock to this, at least for some of us.

My stove boils 2.5 gallons plus 7 pounds of LME and hops, but it doesn't ever get to a great rolling boil, just boils. I would be very concerned that if I put in a few pounds of LME for the full boil, then added the rest towards the end, the boil would stop and then not resume for a while. Since I'm using bulk LME that I want to ensure is boiled to kill the bugs, I'm concerned about that AND about calculating how to add the hops.

Example:

Boil for 50 minutes with bittering hops. Remove from stove (to prevent scorching), adding the rest of the LME. Put back on stove, does not come to a boil. It took a few minutes to add the LME, let's say it takes another 10 minutes to come back to boil. I need to add hops at T-5. Does the 10 - 15 minutes count for the bittering hops or for the aroma hops, i.e. I'm now at 65 minutes and adding aroma hops for 5? I was told, and read, that 15 minutes is needed on the bulk LME to be safe.

I don't care about the color, i.e. if it's darker than intended, all I care about is taste. And, since the recipe I'm doing has me adding all of it up front I will get the desired outcome. Just curious how people handle this.

Rickbeer, in your case, I would probably take the last maybe 15-20 minutes of the boil to slowly add the rest of the extract. Think of it as a continuous IV drip of LME into the pot so that you're not cooling the wort down too quickly that it doesn't stop boiling.

Clearly that's an option. But if I'm not concerned about color, there is no reason to do that, correct? Unless the recipe doesn't assume you're adding all the LME at the beginning like the three I've done so far do.

brewin bull wrote:I do mostly steeps with and extract. I believe I read somewhere at one time you should do the hop boil with about a pound of DME or the equivalent LME. That is what I do. I am beginning to question why? When you do an all grain you boil the full wort for the hop boil.

What are the cons to doing a full dme/lme boil, or did I just misinterpret?

To be honest I have to say that I've wondered the same thing. As I understand it LME/DME is nothing more than a mash that has been concentrated down to a syrup or a powder. When we reconstitute it it should be nothing more than a normal mash again, right?

But the "proof is in the pudding". Any extract and/or extract/steep or P.M. I've done where I did a full boil always turned out significantly darker than the ones I did where I started out with half the DME or LME and then added the last half towards the end of the boil.

It's just a head scratcher.

Well, color is one reason, but more importantly is hop utilization. A wort that's 1.030-1.040 makes for best utilization of hops in the boil. That isn't to say that a wort with higher or lower gravity than that won't utilize hops oils at all, but it may not turn out as bitter/flavorful/aromatic as you were looking for. Above all, if your method is producing beer that you like, then that's all that matters.

RickBeer wrote:Example:

Boil for 50 minutes with bittering hops. Remove from stove (to prevent scorching), adding the rest of the LME. Put back on stove, does not come to a boil. It took a few minutes to add the LME, let's say it takes another 10 minutes to come back to boil. I need to add hops at T-5. Does the 10 - 15 minutes count for the bittering hops or for the aroma hops, i.e. I'm now at 65 minutes and adding aroma hops for 5? I was told, and read, that 15 minutes is needed on the bulk LME to be safe.

Just curious how people handle this.

I can relate, the same happens to me on my electric ceramic stovetop.
I generally treat the "down time" before the boil resumes as aroma hop time, rather than part of the boil time. It's kind of a hop stand, IMO. And since I prefer hop-forward beers as a general rule, I usually don't even count that time in the recipe, as far as entering it into software is concerned -- it's just "bonus hopping" for me.

The other issue I have ran into, which has me leaning toward adding it all up front, is after you add in more DME/LME you get another hot break. So especially in your case Rick, if you get some crazy hot break while adding more LME, and have to deal with that and aren't able to add your hops at 10 or 15. Too much work and I don't really think a beer being too dark is such a bad thing that it needs to add more headache to the brewday.

Do you have 2nd pot that you can use for heating the additional LME/DME before mixing it all together? Use your main boiling pot for the hops, keeping your OG around 1.040. Mix the 2 together at the end of the hop boil.


Rick

RickBeer wrote:Clearly that's an option. But if I'm not concerned about color, there is no reason to do that, correct? Unless the recipe doesn't assume you're adding all the LME at the beginning like the three I've done so far do.

that is the only reason i've ever heard. if i'm doing a dark beer like my cincy common it all goes in at the start. tastes fine

philm00x wrote:Well, color is one reason, but more importantly is hop utilization. A wort that's 1.030-1.040 makes for best utilization of hops in the boil. That isn't to say that a wort with higher or lower gravity than that won't utilize hops oils at all, but it may not turn out as bitter/flavorful/aromatic as you were looking for. Above all, if your method is producing beer that you like, then that's all that matters.

This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this thread. I've also been taught to believe that hop utilization does indeed go down as the gravity of the wort goes up beyond 1.040.

As far as why full boil is okay for AG but not for extract, I think that relates to the topping off with additional water at the end of an extract boil. Accounting for evaporation, if the target OG for the AG wort is 1.048 for example, the starting gravity for the hop boil is obviously even lower.

On the other hand, if the target OG for the extract wort is 1.048, and it will be topped off with a gallon or so of cold water after the boil, who knows how high that "concentrated wort for the hop boil will be? Even with extra water to allow for evaporation, that gravity is probably pretty high.

As far as being concerned about killing off beasties in the bulk extract, I have always felt that 10 minutes at 160 is enough to pasteurize anything. I feel that boiling is a nice insurance policy, but not an absolute necessity by any means. Of course, that could be wrong, but I've yet to have a single infection out of almost 60 batches done that way.

Well, that's all I can think of.