BeerBorg

Hi
I been drinking beer for close to 50 years now, had lots of different types. Not a big fan out stout or real dark beer in general. I'm not that knowledgeable about difference in like wheat beer or all the different varieties of beer

My question is there a basic beer to use that does well with experiencing with flavors. Like a plain vanilla cake with no frosting you can do a lot with it like a blank canvas so to speak. That's why I bought a Coopers Draught I thought it would work just plain draft beer (I'm sure I'm wrong)

I love the twisted monk,and the Canadian blonde.
Thanks all

clay5769 wrote:....a plain vanilla cake with no frosting you can do a lot with it like a blank canvas so to speak.....

The thing is that when you buy a HME you already have a cake with the frosting on it.

You can tweak a HME in a number of ways but you are not really starting with that blank canvas.

You would be closer to your blank canvas if you bought malt extract and built a beer from that. But then you are in to hops boils and such.

What The Professor said.

I'll just say that if you simply can't/wont go there yet and want the most blank slate extracts possible, then ones like the Mexican Cerveza (Coopers or Mr. Beer they are the same, just different sized cans), or the Mr. Beer Canadian Blonde are the best places to start. They actually might even be the same exact extract, I don't think I could tell them apart back in the day.

They have just enough bitterness to balance the beer, but not so much that they are "bitter". Any perception of actual "bitter" will come from ingredients you add, not the extract.

The Mr. Beer American Light Lager is even less bitter and less malty, so if you want something totally without character that would be it, but I always liked the results of using the Cerveza / Blonde best when I was using an HME as my "base malt" + bittering addition as such.

The Coopers Draught or Lager starts off more bitter, and both have more finishing hops so much less of a true "blank slate" in that regards.

Mr. Beer / Coopers uses a hop called "Pride of Ringwood" as their bittering hop. Even though in theory bittering hop character isn't very present in a final beer, that is a hop that I and some others here can taste even if it was just used as a bittering hop if it was used above a certain threshold. The extracts listed above, I don't taste it. Anything with more IBUs I would taste it for sure, as a "woody" flavor for lack of a better term unless I buried it under some other flavor I added. I would taste it in the Coopers Draught I'm fairly certain. If I bought an actual bottle of Coopers ale or Lager off the store shelf I know I would taste it.

Hi
Great responses.

So if I wanted to start doing the brewing from scratch what is a good start point for beginners .

Like what do I need and how do I start. I'm not looking to re make the wheel I just want more control over the flavor.

So if I wanted to do a basic pilsner from scratch how would I do it. Or for that matter just a normal beer not the craft beer what would it take.

I have a 6 gallon fermentation jug and two of the 2 gallon and a 1 gallon.

Thanks
Clayton

I often refer to Brewing Classic Styles, by Palmer and Zainasheff. It has a recipe and discussion for every base style, as well as brewing instructions. I also like How To Brew, by Palmer, but the first time I read it I found the amount of detail a little intimidating.
When I want to test ingredients, I will make a small simple batch. For instance, I got some homegrown hops of unknown variety. I brewed a pale ale with pale extract, and added only that hop for bittering and flavor. When I wanted to test rye crystal, I brewed a batch with 10% rye crystal and only a clean bittering hop. There are recipe calculators that will help you keep balance, I use Brewer's Friend.

clay5769 wrote:So if I wanted to start doing the brewing from scratch what is a good start point for beginners .

What I did was start brewing some extract kits.
Chose some beer styles you like or want to try. Try some different styles from some different online stores.
You'll start to understand the different extracts, grains, hops, and yeast used.
You will either find some kits you like or know how you want it different.

clay5769 wrote:So if I wanted to start doing the brewing from scratch what is a good start point for beginners.

I'd suggest trying different extract kits from on-line suppliers such as
... MoreBeer (https://www.morebeer.com/category/malt- ... -kits.html)
... Northern Brewer (https://www.northernbrewer.com/collecti ... ecipe-kits)
... Midwest Supplies (https://www.midwestsupplies.com/collect ... ecipe-kits)

Next step-up: mini-mash (available in kits; soak some grain in hot water and add to extract)

Like what do I need and how do I start. I'm not looking to re make the wheel I just want more control over the flavor.

If you stay with liquid malt extracts (LME) ... make sure they're fresh; otherwise ... you're more likely to end up with a 'twang' after-taste.

Dried malt extract (DME) is preferred by some -- although there's a knack to its re-hydration -- and b/c it's a powder ... it's much less expensive to ship.

Control over the flavor starts with the extract - light or dark - and the choice of hops which are added at different times during the boll to offset the sweetness of the malt (bittering) ... flavor ... and aroma. If there's a commercial brew you enjoy ... search for a clone recipe.

So if I wanted to do a basic pilsner from scratch how would I do it. Or for that matter just a normal beer not the craft beer what would it take.

Pilsners are lagers which require fermenting at much cooler temperatures than the ales you've been brewing. Might be best to avoid adding another layer of complexity at this point in your home brewing journey.

Thanks everyone I got some studying to do..

Just an FYI / some hints RE: the "make sure you use fresh extracts" comment above.

If ordering a kit from an on-line place like MoreBeer or Northern Brewer or Midwest or Austin Home Brew or wherever... then what you want to do is look a the kit ingredients list. If the kit comes with Pilsner or Pale / Extra Pale extract in plastic jugs or foil bags, then the extract likely turns over quickly from all of those places and will be fresh as they fill the jugs from bulk extract they buy and it's always turning over.

If it is a darker colored extract it is much less likely to be as fresh. It is better to start with a fresh light extract and then "add your own darkness" via steeping grains included in the kit. This is really not any more difficult then making tea. It just seems scary. It's not hard to do at all, it just adds time to the process. The good news is you can set it and forget it and it won't harm anything if you let it steep longer then is suggested because you are off doing something else. You don't have to sit there and stare at it the whole time it steeps.

Now if the extract comes in a can (some boxed kits like brewers best) it is much less likely to be fresh and may even be some years old.

I would stick with those places own popular kits, vs. going with a pre-manufactured boxed kit if you want the freshest ingredients.

I am not trying to push one company over another and a lot of different ones to choose, but morebeer is good with decent pricing and free shipping over $59.00 and not hard to reach that, I just placed a order today. When I was doing extract I mostly used LME when first moved up from can kits because was like what I was use too on the MB kits. I like DME better and as Herb said just a little more challenging. As we all have been saying, do it at your own pace and sounds scary but really is not that hard and you got the whole borg behind you to help. Lots more things out there if want to try. https://www.morebeer.com/category/malt- ... -kits.html

mashani wrote:Just an FYI / some hints RE: the "make sure you use fresh extracts" comment above.

Now if the extract comes in a can (some boxed kits like brewers best) it is much less likely to be fresh and may even be some years old.

I would stick with those places own popular kits, vs. going with a pre-manufactured boxed kit if you want the freshest ingredients.

totally agree.

my hope was to steer clay away from products on Amazon ...

I switched to all grain when the pandemic hit. Before that, I was doing partial mash, largely because my LHBS sells LME for a really good price, especially if you buy in bulk. I think the price dropped to $2/lb if you brought your own containers and bought at least 36 lbs. I bought a bunch of half gallon containers (a half gallon is ~6 pounds) at the dollar store and would usually fill 6-8 of them each visit and freeze most of them.

A long time ago, they sold various extracts, but at some point, they started selling only the lightest (usually either pilsen or extra light) and helping people choose steeping grains to get the desired results. That way, they went through the extract much faster and it was always super fresh. I think they got 55 gallon barrels (roughly 660 lbs) and they rarely lasted more than about a week.

Herb is correct that pilsners are traditionally lagers and are harder to brew than ales, but you can come close by using a clean fermenting ale yeast near the low end of its temperature range, and using hops like saaz (saaz is the original pilsner hop), hallertauer, liberty. I've used Nottingham yeast below its stated range for this purpose. US-05, Cellar Science Cali, Mangrove Jack M44 are good candidates, as well. Some people say those three are all chico strains, but many people talk about getting a peach flavor from US-05 and I haven't seen that from the others. I don't think any of them work well at temperatures as low as Nottingham (it does fine as low as 55 if you pitch enough). The others seem to struggle below 60.

One warning about trying to brew a pilsner like beer. Many craft beer drinkers and home brewers bad mouth and joke about classic American pilsners (like sex in a canoe, f'n close to water). But it's actually really difficult to brew a low IBU, low SRM beer successfully. When you're being a more complex beer, there's a lot more room for error. An IPA is supposed to be something like SRM 8-15. A Pilsner is something like 3-6. And lots of hops can cover up small flavor mistakes. Same goes for darker beers like stouts and porters. You can hide a lot of mistakes with stronger flavors.

That's actually one reason I'll occasionally brew what I call a lagale (a lager like beer fermented with an ale yeast). I consider it a challenge.

Also besides Nottingham, other alternatives like dry Kolsch yeast like Lallemand Kolsch, or a dry German Ale yeast like K-97 will also make a pretty good "mock pilsner" or mock festbiers at more reasonable temps if you want to use dry ale yeast.

K-97 will make a *huge* krausen though, so make sure you have room in your fermenter if you go that route.

Also the reality is dry lager yeast like 34/70 will work perfectly fine at 62-64 degrees and not give you something nasty. You do not *have* to ferment with it in the 50s to get good results. The actual biggest advantage of lager yeasts being able to ferment at 50 is simply that not many other things like to ferment at 50, so you are almost guaranteed to get an infection free beer as long as the beer is stored continuously at cold temps until serving time. (hence it's popularity back in the "old times"). This turned into the idea that lagers had to be fermented really cold. The reality is that with many lagers yeasts they actually do not need to be fermented cold at all.

mashani wrote:......Also the reality is dry lager yeast like 34/70 will work perfectly fine at 62-64 degrees and not give you something nasty....

I once did what I called an Olde Style California Lager using 34/70 at 60ish. It had a slight butterscotch. Worked fine for that beer. Everyone that tried it liked it.

The_Professor wrote:

mashani wrote:......Also the reality is dry lager yeast like 34/70 will work perfectly fine at 62-64 degrees and not give you something nasty....

I once did what I called an Olde Style California Lager using 34/70 at 60ish. It had a slight butterscotch. Worked fine for that beer. Everyone that tried it liked it.

Next up for me is a scaled back Maibock, more of a Helles and going to use 34/70 but going to try to keep it under 60. Lots of experiments online of using 34/70 at a higher temp with good results.