BeerBorg

This is just too sad. People going about their lives, going to work and 11 (at latest check) are dead and many more are wounded for what? So some loser can make a statement? These fools have to know they won't survive but it appears 2 may have.
What is becoming of us as a people where it's ANY type of rational to kill someone else?

I hope this is not another terrorist incident but I fear it may be the homegrown kind. Too early to tell. But, if you don't like what's going on in this country, get the frack out and go somewhere else!

Prayers for the victims and their families.

Beer-lord wrote: What is becoming of us as a people where it's ANY type of rational to kill someone else?

This is not a recent thing. Unfortunately we are all animals and sometimes people are just born broken. Humans have been killing each other as long as there are humans. It's just that our population is greatly increasing and we have the ability for instantaneous news which increases the exposure.


It is a tragedy though and I hope they catch the other people involved.

I am waiting for some to answer how a person could get through security with all those weapons after the Ft. Hood incident.

Whether we like it or not, it appears to be another incident involving weapons that have no place in the home like assault rifles. We as a country have to wake up and recognize that while there is a right to bear arms, there is no need for weapons that have this kind of killing capacity. People don't hunt with assault rifles, and many long-time gun owners and hunters have come out in support of restricting weapons that have this kind of capacity. We as a country keep getting wake ups like this, yet we do nothing.

I won't go into a rally against the NRA except to say that only 4% of gun owners belong to the NRA, yet it wields way too much sway over our political process.

My thoughts are with those that senselessly lost their lives today and their families.

I'm going to chime in here and just say that I know that this is an extremely volatile topic and I respect the everyone's right to express the opinion regarding the second amendment and gun control but if this thread starts to degrade into a flame war about guns and people stop being civil each other, I WILL NOT HESITATE TO SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN!

This is a senseless and tragic event and my heart goes out to the victims and their families!

Sad event.
Prayers for these families!

Suspect shot out contractor's tire in Seattle 9 yrs ago, shot bullet into apt next to him in Texas in "accident", and nothing was connected...

RickBeer wrote:Whether we like it or not, it appears to be another incident involving weapons that have no place in the home like assault rifles. We as a country have to wake up and recognize that while there is a right to bear arms, there is no need for weapons that have this kind of killing capacity. People don't hunt with assault rifles, and many long-time gun owners and hunters have come out in support of restricting weapons that have this kind of capacity. We as a country keep getting wake ups like this, yet we do nothing.

I won't go into a rally against the NRA except to say that only 4% of gun owners belong to the NRA, yet it wields way too much sway over our political process.

My thoughts are with those that senselessly lost their lives today and their families.

the same thing could've been accomplished with a revolver and a few speed loaders. something the press will never tell you, and if you think it'll stop with just assault weapons you're sadly mistaken. they can't allow us any guns or we can fight back. once they crack the constitution all our rights will go. but first they must dis-arm us. trust no politician they are all crooked, with out exception. you are being tricked and manipulated, it's what they do. your prejudice es cannot and must not be used to curtail anyone else's rights. i'd be wondering how he got thru security with that hardware. help? or dereliction? no i don't own or desire to own an assault rifle. i got a lever action 30/30 holds 3 rounds., a single shot 12 gauge, made in 1949 (it was my maternal grandfather's), and a 22 revolver. more people are killed each year by drunk drivers, but i don't see a campaign to put breathalysers on every car so we have to prove we're sober every time we start the car. the right to drive don't exist in the constitution so why don't they act?? because we're being manipulated to further their political goals. we got more than enough laws to prevent this from happening but they are not being enforced with any vigor. why? we're being manipulated. maybe we should wonder why?

@RickBeer - some people do actually hunt with assault rifles. An AR makes a good hunting rifle actually. But is it necessary? No. As someone who grew up in a family of hunters, I would argue that if you can't take down what you shoot at with one or two shots in an oops scenario you are either a bad shot and therefore should spend time at the range before you go out hunting, or you are using the wrong gun, or you are simply a sadist who likes to inflict unnecessary pain on things.

@Jim and anyone: I am all for the right to bear arms. I own them. I own a high power rifle for long range shooting - target or hunting - which although not an assault rifle is basically the same gun that a Marine sniper might use - did use in the past for sure, although they use modified semi auto versions now - also smaller caliber rifles for short range target, and a shotgun.

But honestly the constitution has already been interpreted to not allow everyone to own anything they want. Without special licensing or proper authority you can't just go out and buy a tank and shells. Or a fighter jet with missiles. Or a morter. Nor can you buy a fully automatic machine gun. Now yeah some people would argue that you should be able to own these things, but they are missing something.

In the federalist papers, Jefferson made it very clear that he viewed the concept of a "well regulated militia" as if it implied that the militia was constantly trained and drilled in the use of the weapons they were to own. Without training the militia was not a militia but instead a mob or if nothing else simply dangerous to their fellow man and not a proper protectorate of the state.

And then the feds and states just dropped the ball and never established a method to do this. We have the state national guard units, but that's not really what the founding fathers intended in this regards IMHO. They wanted everyone who wanted to be able to own a weapon, but also be fully trained, tested, and responsible for it's use.

I'm pretty much in line with Jefferson - I personally believe that everyone who owns should be made to learn to shoot and demonstrate that they can do it accurately and safely, and that they understand safety protocols to get a license to own/carry. What we call licensing for carry right now is lame. I've seen CCW people here chamber rounds or try to clear a round while pointing their gun at stuff that should not be pointed at unless you want said stuff to die. Even law enforcement training is lame - at least around here, cops are not trained to shoot at anything that is moving accurately but instead to put as much lead in the general direction of the target as is possible if they think their backstop is safe. But even that is a fail, because cops around here have been known to encircle a perp and fire at them from all sides, in effect shooting at each other if they miss the perp.

I do not consider proper training to be a violation of the principles of our founding fathers. I consider it what they intended - for all citizens who wanted it. With rights come responsibilities, and responsibility was the intent IMHO.

Not long ago we had some kids with an AR shooting targets at the top of a hill from down the hill on their farm.. and missing them and putting holes into a house 4000 yards away. Absolutely no concept of backstop, nor what goes up must come down. Luckily the people in that house were not home at the time. This was laughed off as an accident... when it comes to guns there are no accidents. You are responsible when it's in your hands, no excuses...

I feel sorry for the family and the ppl that lost their lives. This makes no sense at all! Why did they do it?

Louie's right ya'll, lets don't make this into a gun control thread, this is not the place or the time. Pray for the families in their time of need.

My intentions for this post was to simply express my feelings that I think the human race is losing it. I know we've been killing each other for a tens of thousands of years but have we learned nothing as a human race? I know the 24 hour news cycle pushes viewing non stop coverage but we seem to thrive on it now. We have ways to keep people alive and cure many illnesses, we have a way to reach the moon and maybe the stars yet we somehow think we can make things right by killing others. It's not a gun issue to me at all, it's simply just right vs. wrong.
Sure, some people have mental illness and stress but this guy planned this. Stole and ID (or forged it) and snuck his way in. He knew right from wrong. We all do. You want to kill yourself, that's your business but innocent people just going about their business and lives are now just another one of our many tragedies.
You don't need guns to kill people, hands can do it, cars kill people, etc. We just need to know that killing is not going to solve anything.

Beer-lord wrote:My intentions for this post was to simply express my feelings that I think the human race is losing it. I know we've been killing each other for a tens of thousands of years but have we learned nothing as a human race? I know the 24 hour news cycle pushes viewing non stop coverage but we seem to thrive on it now. We have ways to keep people alive and cure many illnesses, we have a way to reach the moon and maybe the stars yet we somehow think we can make things right by killing others. It's not a gun issue to me at all, it's simply just right vs. wrong.
Sure, some people have mental illness and stress but this guy planned this. Stole and ID (or forged it) and snuck his way in. He knew right from wrong. We all do. You want to kill yourself, that's your business but innocent people just going about their business and lives are now just another one of our many tragedies.
You don't need guns to kill people, hands can do it, cars kill people, etc. We just need to know that killing is not going to solve anything.

Unfortunately a great many people don't know right from wrong. And even people that plan things can not understand why what they did was wrong.

And unfortunately violence of all sorts drives our existence. Violence so often is so very effective people learn to rely on it. A friend of mine grew up in one of the worst neighborhoods in the country and even though he made it out it is interesting for me to see things from the perspective of 12 year old him. His cousin was committing armed robbery at the age of 14 and everybody knew it but it put food on the table for a lot of the family. Then he learned he could actually make enough to buy a car and what not. Violence in the middle east has brought about new governments for a few places. The pirates in Africa basically run the Ethiopian economy because it's the only way for a lot of people to get money.

And for every bit that we want to pretend we have evolved past our animal instincts they are still there and you can see most of society justify violence because it's correct in that situation. Their are religious people of all sorts that advocate the death or forced conversion of nonbelievers. People clamor for prison rape for anybody that has been accused of crimes some of them trivial and that's acceptable because the person is labeled a criminal. The majority of society is OK with LEOs beating up anybody they deal with because anybody that they deal with must have done something to deserve it. I am sure there are plenty more examples of this if we were to look hard enough but it boils down to the fact that society still wants violence.

I agree that it can make the world a sad place sometimes and causes tragedies like the Navy Yard shooting to occur but I just don't know what we can do about it. I have a friend that is majoring in psychology and her main focus is on violence and what the mental causes are. Hopefully she and the others like her can come up with something because the problem will only get worse as our population increases.

mashani wrote:@RickBeer - some people do actually hunt with assault rifles. An AR makes a good hunting rifle actually. But is it necessary? No. As someone who grew up in a family of hunters, I would argue that if you can't take down what you shoot at with one or two shots in an oops scenario you are either a bad shot and therefore should spend time at the range before you go out hunting, or you are using the wrong gun, or you are simply a sadist who likes to inflict unnecessary pain on things.

@Jim and anyone: I am all for the right to bear arms. I own them. I own a high power rifle for long range shooting - target or hunting - which although not an assault rifle is basically the same gun that a Marine sniper might use - did use in the past for sure, although they use modified semi auto versions now - also smaller caliber rifles for short range target, and a shotgun.

But honestly the constitution has already been interpreted to not allow everyone to own anything they want. Without special licensing or proper authority you can't just go out and buy a tank and shells. Or a fighter jet with missiles. Or a morter. Nor can you buy a fully automatic machine gun. Now yeah some people would argue that you should be able to own these things, but they are missing something.

In the federalist papers, Jefferson made it very clear that he viewed the concept of a "well regulated militia" as if it implied that the militia was constantly trained and drilled in the use of the weapons they were to own. Without training the militia was not a militia but instead a mob or if nothing else simply dangerous to their fellow man and not a proper protectorate of the state.

And then the feds and states just dropped the ball and never established a method to do this. We have the state national guard units, but that's not really what the founding fathers intended in this regards IMHO. They wanted everyone who wanted to be able to own a weapon, but also be fully trained, tested, and responsible for it's use.

I'm pretty much in line with Jefferson - I personally believe that everyone who owns should be made to learn to shoot and demonstrate that they can do it accurately and safely, and that they understand safety protocols to get a license to own/carry. What we call licensing for carry right now is lame. I've seen CCW people here chamber rounds or try to clear a round while pointing their gun at stuff that should not be pointed at unless you want said stuff to die. Even law enforcement training is lame - at least around here, cops are not trained to shoot at anything that is moving accurately but instead to put as much lead in the general direction of the target as is possible if they think their backstop is safe. But even that is a fail, because cops around here have been known to encircle a perp and fire at them from all sides, in effect shooting at each other if they miss the perp.

I do not consider proper training to be a violation of the principles of our founding fathers. I consider it what they intended - for all citizens who wanted it. With rights come responsibilities, and responsibility was the intent IMHO.

Not long ago we had some kids with an AR shooting targets at the top of a hill from down the hill on their farm.. and missing them and putting holes into a house 4000 yards away. Absolutely no concept of backstop, nor what goes up must come down. Luckily the people in that house were not home at the time. This was laughed off as an accident... when it comes to guns there are no accidents. You are responsible when it's in your hands, no excuses...

i have no objection to training, lord knows i received a lot of it. from my (maternal)grandfather and uncles, then from the army. i don't care about registering my guns and i'll even allow a ballistic sample be taken if they wanted it. why would i care? i'm going to break no laws. as far as them taking, well knowing i have them is not the same thing as finding. your right about the idiots today thinking they can just spray bullets around and cause no collateral damage. these are the same idiots who would hide behind a car door 'cause hey, it's bullet proof in the movies. your also right about the CC laws, at least here in Ga. swmbo has a CC, all she had to do was prove her address and pass a back ground check. no training required. so i taught her, and we hit the range monthly to re-enforce her training. just like i did my kids with the shotgun and rifle (no pistol in those days). imo, the closest thing there is to a safe gun. is one everybody's been trained properly in the use of.

enforce the laws we got we don't need new ones. they'll just ignore them! this guy was twice in trouble for dis-charging his fire arm. either of the reasons given for this should've triggered some kind of a reaction. went off while cleaning. if true he's an idiot and should've been sentenced to a firearms safety program for his own safety as well as others. the second, shooting the tires on a car 'cause he's mad... should've been enough to remove his right to own a gun at the least. public safety, as he's has proven to be dangerously irresponsible with fire arms.

i'm sorry your right, let it go. i am sorry for the families, have and will continue to pray for them.

It was just a shotgun after all. Though this kook seems to have fallen through the cracks.