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Attention Mashani

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:59 pm
by Gymrat
Ralph will trot from the left side of the screen to the right, then run from the right side of the screen to the left. Watch his hind legs when he runs from the right side to the left and tell me what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 3DFF3oCOKg

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:11 am
by mashani
Something that he cant get at is agitating/stimulating him. The lawnmower perhaps or simply it's noise? I know you said he was reactive to truck noises at one point. Or a critter outside the fence? It looks to me like sometimes he's seeing his own shadow moving and instinctively being reactive to that motion (he's supposed to be herding things that move or staring them down using the collie "eye")... but it doesn't react appropriately and then disappears when he moves and that confuses him.

I would need to really understand the context of this behavior, isolate the real trigger to really understand it... Too bad I can't get to your house easily.

I know many collies and other herding dogs that will stare at light reflections and shadows and try to herd them or be simply fascinated by them, and all of them have motion or audio triggers too.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:27 am
by jimjohson
nice looking dog, Gynrat

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:18 am
by Gymrat
Mashani I know what is making him run. It is the dog on the other side of the fence. My concern is the way he "bunny hops" with his hind legs.

Jim thankyou.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:46 pm
by Inkleg
Gymrat wrote: My concern is the way he "bunny hops" with his hind legs.
The bunny hop with the hind legs is actually a energy saver. At the right speed it is easier to hop and use the recoiled energy stored in the legs to propel forward. I have a Bassett Hound, see it all the time.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:57 pm
by Gymrat
Inkleg wrote:
Gymrat wrote: My concern is the way he "bunny hops" with his hind legs.
The bunny hop with the hind legs is actually a energy saver. At the right speed it is easier to hop and use the recoiled energy stored in the legs to propel forward. I have a Bassett Hound, see it all the time.
It is also a symptom of hip dysplasia. Ralph is going in for his annual shots and exam Wednesday. I am going to show this to the vet. I am quite worried about him.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:53 pm
by mashani
I don't think the bunny hop there is because of hip issues, although it's always worth getting checked out because of his breed mix.

I honestly think that when running from right to left he's seeing his shadow against the wall just a bit in front of him and his head is angled towards the it. His posture in general is that of stimulation/excitement, that of a working dog that's trying to do his work. I think he's using the bunny hop to maintain the exact speed he thinks he needs to keep that thing from getting around him in front or running behind him without wasting energy. He doesn't know its his own shadow.

I've seen lots of herding dogs and also sight hounds interact with shadows in a similar way, especially when they can't get at actual things to work with.

EDIT: Does he do it when NOT stimulated? Just out walking suddenly he starts to hop or walk in a weird way, or act gimpy?

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:04 am
by Gymrat
mashani wrote:I don't think the bunny hop there is because of hip issues, although it's always worth getting checked out because of his breed mix.

I honestly think that when running from right to left he's seeing his shadow against the wall just a bit in front of him and his head is angled towards the it. His posture in general is that of stimulation/excitement, that of a working dog that's trying to do his work. I think he's using the bunny hop to maintain the exact speed he thinks he needs to keep that thing from getting around him in front or running behind him without wasting energy. He doesn't know its his own shadow.

I've seen lots of herding dogs and also sight hounds interact with shadows in a similar way, especially when they can't get at actual things to work with.

EDIT: Does he do it when NOT stimulated? Just out walking suddenly he starts to hop or walk in a weird way, or act gimpy?
He does it anytime he is in an all out run. It is a little harder to see here but he is doing it when he is excited about going home from one of our walks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asOAw-5zARo

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:22 am
by mashani
Not enough video there for me to really understand if that's a single suspension gallop in development or a pace gait, but either way those types of running methods can be perfectly normal. A pace gait especially if not running truly full speed. I don't think that video is anywhere near as fast as he can really run??? Or is it? He should be able to hit 20+mph if he really got into it.

Lots of dogs I run with go into a pace gait at certain running speeds, IE when I'm running around 7-6 minute miles. If I get into 5ish minute miles they switch to more of a gallop gait, which type depends on their breed.

I'm NOT saying you should not get it checked out by your vet if your worried, but it's quite possible it's normal.

But FWIW, my cattle dog/aussie/english shepherd mystery mix will run like that at certain speeds and her hips check out normal.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:48 am
by Gymrat
Just after I got Ralph he slipped out the front door. The fosters told me if he ever did that get the car because he loves rides. So I got in my car and instead of getting in he took off. I drove along side of him at slightly over 30MPH for a little over a block before he detected something he wanted to sniff. Then when I stopped and opened the door he got in the car.

He was running all out in the shorter video. And he still bunny hops when he does that. When laying on his stomach he rocks his hips to one side and extends a leg out. He still sits normally. Also when I first got him he would stand straight up on his hind legs like a poodle when he saw me with a tennis ball. Now he only stands partially up on his hind legs. It is like he is losing mobility but he hasn't shown any signs of being in pain.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:57 pm
by mashani
Gymrat wrote:It is like he is losing mobility but he hasn't shown any signs of being in pain.
Unlikely he will, most dogs will not unless it's really bad. Often it manifests more as "don't touch me there" kind of behaviors seemingly out of the blue... which is usually not a big deal, as the dog doesn't really want to hurt you, but it can get sketchy if it's a kid who touches them there and they get nipped at, which is why I mention it. I hope the vet check turns up nothing and it's just the gait he likes to use.

I wish I had my camera today when I ran, because I could have shown you my dog running in a similar manner. I ran 5 miles of burst intervals in clusters (supersets) today. Most of the time my herding dog chose to pace gait run during the bursts, which is like the bunny hop with just a slight difference in which paw leaves the ground first. And I know her hips are good.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:47 pm
by Gymrat
When I went in to our vet today he told me he watched the video I put on his facebook site and that this gate is perfectly normal for Ralph. He also said between that and the way he holds his head when he runs reminds him of the mannerisms of a wolf. He said he wouldn't be surprised if Ralph has some wolf somewhere in his fairly recent bloodlines. Ralph is obviously more of a mutt than I first thought. But ya don't gotta have a pedigree to be a best friend. Anyway I am relieved.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:33 am
by mashani
Glad he's ok.

He could be shepherd/wolf hybrid (low wolf % in the shepherd mix I would think) x collie, who knows. But herding breeds maintain the intense pray drive - they have as much if not more prey drive as a terrier breed - but it's focused totally differently, all of the stalking and chase behaviors kicked up a notch up to but not passing the "kill and eat it" line - at least for things they know belong to you.

I'd love to meet Ralph one day, I'm sure I'd like him a lot. I spent a good bit of time with a pair of huge GSD/Wolf hybrids, but they were 50/50 mixes and super strong and super intense. If they nose poked you, it hurt. Those dogs were not safe around little kids, they were too strong and too sensitive to noise/movement. They were very high strung, but if you acted relaxed around them, they could relax with you. But you had to act right around them.

Re: Attention Mashani

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:44 am
by Gymrat
mashani wrote:Glad he's ok.

He could be shepherd/wolf hybrid (low wolf % in the shepherd mix I would think) x collie, who knows. But herding breeds maintain the intense pray drive - they have as much if not more prey drive as a terrier breed - but it's focused totally differently, all of the stalking and chase behaviors kicked up a notch up to but not passing the "kill and eat it" line - at least for things they know belong to you.

I'd love to meet Ralph one day, I'm sure I'd like him a lot. I spent a good bit of time with a pair of huge GSD/Wolf hybrids, but they were 50/50 mixes and super strong and super intense. If they nose poked you, it hurt. Those dogs were not safe around little kids, they were too strong and too sensitive to noise/movement. They were very high strung, but if you acted relaxed around them, they could relax with you. But you had to act right around them.
If there is any wolf in him I am certain the percentage would be very very low. Maybe a great great grand parent or something, if even that, I absolutely see the shepherd and the collie in him. He does have an extremely strong prey drive, but anytime he ever catches anything I can say "drop it" and he does. I always thought that possibly the prey drive may have been honed in and strengthened when he was a stray. He may have had to rely on what he could catch to eat.

Ralph is extremely gentle with small children. And not just my grandkids. He seems to just really like, and favor, the company of small children. He also gets sort of aggressive when strangers, such as the mailman, approach the house when my grandkids are here. He is very protective of them. He remembers everybody he meets forever. But if he doesn't know someone, I honestly think I would have to kennel him to let them in the house when the kids are here.

When they are not here he generally sees everyone who comes over as a potential best friend ever. But I also think that may be cued off of seeing me let them in and accept them. I did have that incident with the stranger that knocked at my door. That individual was very seedy looking, Ralph stepped between me and the screen door, bared his teeth, and gave that guy hell. To this day I think the guy was casing my house. Had I or the dog not been here I think he would have kicked the door in. I don't know if Ralph saw something he didn't like about the guy or if he was cuing off of my apprehensiveness. I kind of think it was the first part because he was in my window barking in his warning bark before I ever got to the door.

Image

This is Ralph multitasking. He is laying on 3 laps at the same time. I think my grandson got the butt end of the deal.