I'd just stick those high abv beers in some dark corner for 6 months and enjoy your lower abv beers right now. They will mellow.
But yeah, there is a reason I brew saison in the 1.05 range. That's still 5-6%ish beer due to the yeast being beastly. But you can drink them young.
Simple Saison
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monsteroyd
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Re: Simple Saison
Well I don't have any of the lower ABV Saisons coming up until the last half of March, like the 22nd or so. 
Sigh... I guess I'll have to go get some Terrapin golden ale. Oh well free bottles...
Monty
Sigh... I guess I'll have to go get some Terrapin golden ale. Oh well free bottles...Monty
Re: Simple Saison
Or you could pay for bottles with free beers in them.monsteroyd wrote:Well I don't have any of the lower ABV Saisons coming up until the last half of March, like the 22nd or so.
Monty
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monsteroyd
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Re: Simple Saison
Alrighty... Bottled up two more LBKs of Saisons, and actually made another batch of beer too. This is getting near to the end of this thread, as I will report back on how this last set of Saisons came out, but the new batch I made was a blonde ale using Nottingham yeast, so the fermentation chamber has been dialed down to 66F, ale temps. I have the Saisons down I think, so now I move on to simple ales. I also have some Safale K97 yeast coming which can be used as a dry Kolsch yeast too. I also lowered my target ABV to 4.5 because all of the batches in the second set of Saisons were coming out at 6% generally.
The 2 batches I bottled this weekend both came out at 6.3% ABV.
Oh and my new bottle holder works really great (I posted a picture somewhere). I never realized how much time I was spending knocking those PET bottles over and chasing them around.
Monty
The 2 batches I bottled this weekend both came out at 6.3% ABV.
Oh and my new bottle holder works really great (I posted a picture somewhere). I never realized how much time I was spending knocking those PET bottles over and chasing them around.
Monty
Re: Simple Saison
Hey Monty, this Saison quest of yours had me intrigued. I constantly have temperature problems at my home. In order to keep the house warm we have to jack the heat up over 70 degrees,and that makes my small brew-room too hot. So, I see that using Belle Saison yeast allows you to ferment at higher temps. I'm not really worried about matching the standards of the type,I just want to be able to ferment at higher temps. I know you re-hydrate your yeast,but can it just be dumped into the LBK ? I just sent to Mr. Beer for 10 packs of Belle saison yeast last evening,and if it works out,that should carry me until the more brew-favorable weather arrives here in the fall. Would you use a whole 11g packet for a 2.13 gal. batch,or just use the whole pk.? If I want to brew a 5 gal. batch ,then 1 packet will be enough ,correct? Someone on this thread posted that the yeast will devour any kind of malts,so if I want to do a Pale Ale, I can use those ingredients,with that yeast and the only thing I have to worry about is the tastes imparted by the yeast correct? I know that's alot of questions,but having read this entire thread, I believe you are Dr. Saison.Thanx for the answers in advance.......
RandyG
RandyG
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monsteroyd
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Re: Simple Saison
I don't know about 5 gallon batches, maybe some else can answer that, but I use 1 11g sachet re-hydrated for my LBK sized batches (~2.25 gal). I think you would use 2 for a 5 gallon batch. And yes you can ferment well into the 80s from what I've read. I've only gone to about 75-ish. And the great thing about a Saison is I bet you still end up with something in style no matter what you do. 
I have pitched this yeast without re-hydrating and it worked fine. And yes, this yeast will take a 1.080 down to 1.002 with no problem. It is a beast. Be careful, because I have about 50 liters of 10% ABV beer to try to drink. It is still aging. I found it hard to make a 5% ABV beer with this yeast. And no I am not Dr. Saison, just crazy. They are so easy and tasty anyone can make them. I mean how hard is it? Pick some malt, any malt, add some water, boil with hops, pitch yeast and don't worry about fermentation temp. And yes, the taste pretty much comes from the yeast, and you may want to ensure that you like the saisony taste with a commercial one. I just had one on tap (can't remember the name) at a Taco Mac and it was saisony, I liked it, but mine was better (and much more powerful). I know some of my friends that I have given it to don't like it. It's a different taste.
Monty
I have pitched this yeast without re-hydrating and it worked fine. And yes, this yeast will take a 1.080 down to 1.002 with no problem. It is a beast. Be careful, because I have about 50 liters of 10% ABV beer to try to drink. It is still aging. I found it hard to make a 5% ABV beer with this yeast. And no I am not Dr. Saison, just crazy. They are so easy and tasty anyone can make them. I mean how hard is it? Pick some malt, any malt, add some water, boil with hops, pitch yeast and don't worry about fermentation temp. And yes, the taste pretty much comes from the yeast, and you may want to ensure that you like the saisony taste with a commercial one. I just had one on tap (can't remember the name) at a Taco Mac and it was saisony, I liked it, but mine was better (and much more powerful). I know some of my friends that I have given it to don't like it. It's a different taste.Monty
Re: Simple Saison
@Randy G: Things to consider, re the response above and your questions.
RE: trying commercial beers - French saison (which is what Bella Saison is) does not taste like Belgian saison yeast, IE like saison dupont. It's different. So you have to be careful if you taste test to see if you like. If you taste "bubblegum" in the commercial beer, you will *not* get that with the Bella saison/French saison. In it's place you get a citrus like tartness and peppery spice. Which I prefer personally.
You can ferment with the Bella anywhere from the mid 60s to the low 80s. I'd not go into the upper 80s with it, at least not with the initial primary fermentation. It does not need the 80-90 degree temps that Belgian saison yeast needs. It's very happy in the mid 70s.
Yes you can split an 11.5g pack to make 2 2.5 gallon batches as long as you are not brewing saisons with an OG of 1.06+. Which I would highly suggest you do not do, at least not at first. 1.05ish range is going to be a 6+% beer with this yeast because it will ferment just about anything to 1.003 or <. That said it won't hurt to pitch the whole pack and that's what I'd usually do.
You don't need to rehydrate, especially if you pitch the whole pack.
RE: the pale ale concept, one other thing to consider is that because the yeast will take your FG down way lower then say an American ale yeast, the hops are going to come across stronger - the typical BU/GU ratio charts are invalid from a "malty/hoppy" perspective. Those charts assume some residual malt sweetness will remain, and it will not here. The beer will seem dry and tart with very little bittering hops. Also the yeast produced flavors will be stronger, and change the way the flavor/aroma hops come across. So a tried and true recipe is going to come out different if brewed as it was - it will seem more bitter, and the flavor will be different.
I do not mean that to discourage you - just that you may need to tweak your recipes to best take advantage of this yeast.
RE: trying commercial beers - French saison (which is what Bella Saison is) does not taste like Belgian saison yeast, IE like saison dupont. It's different. So you have to be careful if you taste test to see if you like. If you taste "bubblegum" in the commercial beer, you will *not* get that with the Bella saison/French saison. In it's place you get a citrus like tartness and peppery spice. Which I prefer personally.
You can ferment with the Bella anywhere from the mid 60s to the low 80s. I'd not go into the upper 80s with it, at least not with the initial primary fermentation. It does not need the 80-90 degree temps that Belgian saison yeast needs. It's very happy in the mid 70s.
Yes you can split an 11.5g pack to make 2 2.5 gallon batches as long as you are not brewing saisons with an OG of 1.06+. Which I would highly suggest you do not do, at least not at first. 1.05ish range is going to be a 6+% beer with this yeast because it will ferment just about anything to 1.003 or <. That said it won't hurt to pitch the whole pack and that's what I'd usually do.
You don't need to rehydrate, especially if you pitch the whole pack.
RE: the pale ale concept, one other thing to consider is that because the yeast will take your FG down way lower then say an American ale yeast, the hops are going to come across stronger - the typical BU/GU ratio charts are invalid from a "malty/hoppy" perspective. Those charts assume some residual malt sweetness will remain, and it will not here. The beer will seem dry and tart with very little bittering hops. Also the yeast produced flavors will be stronger, and change the way the flavor/aroma hops come across. So a tried and true recipe is going to come out different if brewed as it was - it will seem more bitter, and the flavor will be different.
I do not mean that to discourage you - just that you may need to tweak your recipes to best take advantage of this yeast.
Re: Simple Saison
Many Thanks Mashani, for all of the advice. Actually I'm a Franken-Brewer. I like to experiment. I take a right turn at 1st base 
. Like I posted earlier, I don't follow regulations or guidelines as to certain styles. I read in Monsteroyd's posts about this beast of a yeast that has a high fermenting ceiling.That's right up my alley. This will allow me to brew into the summer months,instead of stopping in May and continuing in October. I'm too lazy to go with the swamp cooler route ,so I just hurry-brewed as many batches as I could in the time allowed.Last summer I was sitting on almost 12 cases going into June. Thankfully, I had brewed 2 Fivers,so that helped with the pipeline as well. So I'm gonna jump in with one foot to see how this yeast can work for me,and I hope for the best. I hate dumping any brew away.Last fall,I brewed a B/D Englishman's Nut Brown with Hazelnut flavoring.Well, OOPs!,too much hazelnut.Did I dump it?Hell Nawl.Whenever I drank a bottle, I added 4 oz. of cream soda. Perked the Ol' Englishman's nutz right up. Also had probs with Aztec Cerveza. Whever I drank one I had a squeeze of lime to go in the glass. MMMMM,palatable at least. I think that temps are a big problem of mine ,so hopefully this yeast will solve them.Thanx again for the advice. BTW, I've had Victory Brewing's "Session Saison" @ 4.2 ABV,and 21st Amendment'sBrewing's "Sneak Attack" saison @6.2% ABV, both of which have the citrusy,peppery flavors. I found them both to be delicious and at the range of ABV's I look for.
. Like I posted earlier, I don't follow regulations or guidelines as to certain styles. I read in Monsteroyd's posts about this beast of a yeast that has a high fermenting ceiling.That's right up my alley. This will allow me to brew into the summer months,instead of stopping in May and continuing in October. I'm too lazy to go with the swamp cooler route ,so I just hurry-brewed as many batches as I could in the time allowed.Last summer I was sitting on almost 12 cases going into June. Thankfully, I had brewed 2 Fivers,so that helped with the pipeline as well. So I'm gonna jump in with one foot to see how this yeast can work for me,and I hope for the best. I hate dumping any brew away.Last fall,I brewed a B/D Englishman's Nut Brown with Hazelnut flavoring.Well, OOPs!,too much hazelnut.Did I dump it?Hell Nawl.Whenever I drank a bottle, I added 4 oz. of cream soda. Perked the Ol' Englishman's nutz right up. Also had probs with Aztec Cerveza. Whever I drank one I had a squeeze of lime to go in the glass. MMMMM,palatable at least. I think that temps are a big problem of mine ,so hopefully this yeast will solve them.Thanx again for the advice. BTW, I've had Victory Brewing's "Session Saison" @ 4.2 ABV,and 21st Amendment'sBrewing's "Sneak Attack" saison @6.2% ABV, both of which have the citrusy,peppery flavors. I found them both to be delicious and at the range of ABV's I look for.-
monsteroyd
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Re: Simple Saison
OK That's the name of the beer I had at Taco Macs, the 21st Amendment one. Interesting. I thought it was good, but not as distinct or as saisony (if that makes sense) as mine. I always have trouble describing how a Saison tastes beyond 'really good'
@Mashani - As always, your posts are full of new info for me. I did not know the Belle Saison was more a French Saison than Belgium. I thought the opposite because of the Belle, I guess. Also did not know that the 11g sachet was good for 5 gallons at a lower OG. Damn dude you are like an encyclopedia
Monty
@Mashani - As always, your posts are full of new info for me. I did not know the Belle Saison was more a French Saison than Belgium. I thought the opposite because of the Belle, I guess. Also did not know that the 11g sachet was good for 5 gallons at a lower OG. Damn dude you are like an encyclopedia
Monty
Last edited by monsteroyd on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Simple Saison
@RandyG:
I brew mostly just Saisons and Belgians and Wheats for 3 months of the year due to the same heat issues/reasons you have. For Belgians 3787 makes good beer all the way up to 80 degrees, so if you can get ambient temps around 72 for the 3 day window of big active fermentation, you can use it. (time your brewing with the weather, it's what I do). For wheat beer, WB-06 makes some banana at 78 degrees, but it's still restrained compared to many other wheat yeasts, so it's a good high temp yeast too if you are into wheats with a bit of banana.
If you get stuck in a time when your ambient temps are in the mid 80s, pick up some Wyeast or White Labs Belgian Saison yeast and let it rip. That stuff makes good beer even at 90 degrees (if you are into bubble gum flavored Saisons like DuPont).
@Monty:
Bella Saison tastes and ferments and acts *exactly* like Wyeast 3711 (French Saison) to me. It has basically replaced 3711 in my brewing because it's just easier to deal with being dry yeast, no starter, no fuss, no worries about it going bad before I use it.
I brew mostly just Saisons and Belgians and Wheats for 3 months of the year due to the same heat issues/reasons you have. For Belgians 3787 makes good beer all the way up to 80 degrees, so if you can get ambient temps around 72 for the 3 day window of big active fermentation, you can use it. (time your brewing with the weather, it's what I do). For wheat beer, WB-06 makes some banana at 78 degrees, but it's still restrained compared to many other wheat yeasts, so it's a good high temp yeast too if you are into wheats with a bit of banana.
If you get stuck in a time when your ambient temps are in the mid 80s, pick up some Wyeast or White Labs Belgian Saison yeast and let it rip. That stuff makes good beer even at 90 degrees (if you are into bubble gum flavored Saisons like DuPont).
@Monty:
Bella Saison tastes and ferments and acts *exactly* like Wyeast 3711 (French Saison) to me. It has basically replaced 3711 in my brewing because it's just easier to deal with being dry yeast, no starter, no fuss, no worries about it going bad before I use it.
Re: Simple Saison
Got some more questions for youse guyz. If you are brewing a Saison in an LBK, do you have overflow problems? How full do you fill it? To the 2.5 Qt. line or above? Do you get alot more trub,do too the vigorous fermentation of the yeast? I'm going to use the original Smoky yellow transparent LBK with an airlock and I can hook up a blow-off tube to it if I need one. Monty,how long did you let your brew in the LBK.I don't take readings,just leave it ferment for 3 weeks.Will that work in the case of a Saison? I'd really like to have a "Set it and Forget it"kinda brew.Sure would make things easier for me. TIA RandyG
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monsteroyd
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Re: Simple Saison
I use a 2.25 gallon (9 qt) batch size in the LBK to fill 8 1L bottles (2.11 gallon), That's just a bit over the 8.5 qt mark. And I do get a bit of overflow sometimes, but not always. about 1 in 9 will overflow a little bit. Yes, you get good fermentation, but it's not something I watch. I get trub after 24 hours.
I always do 3 weeks in the LBK, or more when bottling don't work out due to scheduling. The last batch will have 4.5 weeks if I get it bottled this week. Then always a month to carb and condition in the bottles. I don't check gravity or anything at 3 weeks. It's always been done after 3 weeks for me.
Saisons come pretty much on the easy end of beer brewing Or rather, using this Belle Saison yeast makes it a pretty easy beer to brew.
Monty
I always do 3 weeks in the LBK, or more when bottling don't work out due to scheduling. The last batch will have 4.5 weeks if I get it bottled this week. Then always a month to carb and condition in the bottles. I don't check gravity or anything at 3 weeks. It's always been done after 3 weeks for me.
Saisons come pretty much on the easy end of beer brewing
Or rather, using this Belle Saison yeast makes it a pretty easy beer to brew. Monty
Re: Simple Saison
The bella isn't as much a blowoff machine as some other yeasts.
If you are brewing a saison of a reasonable strength (hint, not like Monty's 10% beasties) you probably are relatively safe.
With the bella saison as long as you keep your temps around 70, set it and forget it is fine, and 3 weeks is fine, but it won't take 3 weeks especially if you pitch a full pack of bella into a < 1.06 wort. You could probably bottle that at 7-10 days possibly even sooner. So 2 weeks would be totally safe.
Now if you were using Belgian Saison (DuPont strain), you simply can't use that yeast without a hydrometer. It gets stuck and wakes up and gets stuck and wakes up and is generally a temperamental bastard of a yeast.
If you are brewing a saison of a reasonable strength (hint, not like Monty's 10% beasties) you probably are relatively safe.
With the bella saison as long as you keep your temps around 70, set it and forget it is fine, and 3 weeks is fine, but it won't take 3 weeks especially if you pitch a full pack of bella into a < 1.06 wort. You could probably bottle that at 7-10 days possibly even sooner. So 2 weeks would be totally safe.
Now if you were using Belgian Saison (DuPont strain), you simply can't use that yeast without a hydrometer. It gets stuck and wakes up and gets stuck and wakes up and is generally a temperamental bastard of a yeast.
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monsteroyd
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Re: Simple Saison
OK I bottled the last of the Saisons last night. This was the Sorachi Red Eye Rye, but it didn't turn out very red, just a nice rich golden color. The gravity sample tasted great, and came in at 1.004 for a ABV of 5.5%. I'll gladly take that. Basic recipe was:
1lb carared steeped (150F 30 minutes)
1lb light DME
12 oz rye LME (20% rye/80% barley)
9.2 oz Munich LME
2 oz honey
First Wort of .5 oz Sorachi Ace boiled 10 minutes - Beersmith is saying about 22 IBU
Rehydrated Belle Saison yeast
misc whirlfloc/yeast nutrient/FermcapS etc.
Can't hardly wait till April 10 to try it.
Other good news is the very first of the second set of Saisons are coming up this weekend. I already have a couple of liters in the frig for the weekend. Predicting rain on Sunday, so that's probably going to mean I can make a blonde ale or if I get some instant grits, maybe a cream ale.
Monty
1lb carared steeped (150F 30 minutes)
1lb light DME
12 oz rye LME (20% rye/80% barley)
9.2 oz Munich LME
2 oz honey
First Wort of .5 oz Sorachi Ace boiled 10 minutes - Beersmith is saying about 22 IBU
Rehydrated Belle Saison yeast
misc whirlfloc/yeast nutrient/FermcapS etc.
Can't hardly wait till April 10 to try it.
Other good news is the very first of the second set of Saisons are coming up this weekend. I already have a couple of liters in the frig for the weekend. Predicting rain on Sunday, so that's probably going to mean I can make a blonde ale or if I get some instant grits, maybe a cream ale.
Monty
Re: Simple Saison
how are you going to steep the grits? I would think that would come through a mesh bag.monsteroyd wrote:OK I bottled the last of the Saisons last night. This was the Sorachi Red Eye Rye, but it didn't turn out very red, just a nice rich golden color. The gravity sample tasted great, and came in at 1.004 for a ABV of 5.5%. I'll gladly take that. Basic recipe was:
1lb carared steeped (150F 30 minutes)
1lb light DME
12 oz rye LME (20% rye/80% barley)
9.2 oz Munich LME
2 oz honey
First Wort of .5 oz Sorachi Ace boiled 10 minutes - Beersmith is saying about 22 IBU
Rehydrated Belle Saison yeast
misc whirlfloc/yeast nutrient/FermcapS etc.
Can't hardly wait till April 10 to try it.
Other good news is the very first of the second set of Saisons are coming up this weekend. I already have a couple of liters in the frig for the weekend. Predicting rain on Sunday, so that's probably going to mean I can make a blonde ale or if I get some instant grits, maybe a cream ale.
Monty