BRAND NEW ezRecipe-RO© - βeta Testers Wanted

[ScrewyBrewer]

For a limited time only seeking βeta testers from The Borg to test ezRecipe-RO©, a brand new brew science project. Testers to compare ezRecipe-RO© with their favorite recipe software and provide honest accurate feedback right here, which will be then be used to further development along.

Tip of the day: Data input fields have a white background color, all calculated values are displayed in the light green fields.

brewhouse.jpg (25.71 KiB) Viewed 5194 times

ezRecipe-RO© is a full featured brewing recipe calculator, easy to setup and easy to use. Developed with the RO water enthusiast in mind, just enter your brewhouse information, grains, hops and water profile adjustments and off you go.

Thank you in advance for helping to make ezRecipe-RO© even better every day!

[Beer-lord]

Perfect timing for this weekends brew.
Will let you know.
And thanks much Vince.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Perfect timing for this weekends brew.
Will let you know.
And thanks much Vince.

You're most welcome Paul. Actually without the feedback from experienced brewers an application like ezRecipe-RO© could never reach it's full potential, which in my mind is a must before releasing it to the public.

Tip of the day: When designing a new recipe. Select the style that most closely matches what you have in mind from the list of BJCP 2015 styles. Then select the grains, enter the weight and watch the numbers change in the section below.

bjcpstyle.jpg (48.33 KiB) Viewed 5182 times

ezRecipe-RO© is also smartphone friendly, so you can use it while you're on the go, watching TV or waiting for an appointment.

[Beer-lord]

Got a few questions already. I don't see Maris Otter listed so I assume I can go with UK 2 row????
On the water adjustments, I see things are listed in grams but for lactic acid, can I assume the numbers I put in are for ml?
So far the numbers are pretty far off from your last calculator though I've put in the exact same adjustments and info. But, I'm still playing with it. I can say you have this laid out almost perfectly like it should be! Great job to keep it in that format.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Got a few questions already. I don't see Maris Otter listed so I assume I can go with UK 2 row????
On the water adjustments, I see things are listed in grams but for lactic acid, can I assume the numbers I put in are for ml?
So far the numbers are pretty far off from your last calculator though I've put in the exact same adjustments and info. But, I'm still playing with it. I can say you have this laid out almost perfectly like it should be! Great job to keep it in that format.

Great catch Paul!
Yes according to Northern Brewer's website Maris Otter is English 2-Row, who knew...
Yes I do have to display ml somewhere nearby the Lactic acid liquid additions, the other minerals are dry and use grams.
Yes I like the layout too, especially the accordion style menus.

The greatest improvement is in the new pH calculation engine. ezRecipe-RO© doesn't require individual DI pH values for each grain used in the recipe. The pH calculations are modeled after the work of DM Riffe, Kai Troester and lengthy conversations with AJ deLange over the years.

I will have an updated version, incorporating the changes you pointed out, next week. Thank you for helping me test this new application, I hope everyone is as excited about it as I am.

[Beer-lord]

The only other thing I can think of questions for are the hops. Lots of new one's aren't shown but it doesn't appear they affect the ph values no matter what I choose so I plan to just skip that part for now.
I think I'll try the numbers on the new calculator, though much higher, then adjust afterwards and let you know what happens. I'd rather be a bit too high and add more additions than be too low and have to deal with baking soda and the like.

[Beer-lord]

Vince, do you prefer I discuss the testing in this forum or contact you directly?
Here's what I've tried so far:
I've put in my recipe for tomorrows brew in ezRecipe-RO, Brun' Water 4.2 (latest I think) and EZwater 3.0.Using the exact same additions of Gypsum, CCl and lactic acid for 9 gallons of water and my recipe shows a wider range between the 3 than I would like to see. Here's what each shows:
ezRecipe-RO 5.5
EZwater 3 5.48
Brun Water 4.2 5.39
Thru the course of the last year, I've usually been closer to EZwater 3 though recently your last RO calculator was pretty close. But the swing from 5.5 to 5.39 is pretty wide, right? I'm planning to start with the additions I have calculated and see what I end up with and make any adjustments if needed to get me below 5.4 (I'm really wanting to get to about 5.35 but would rather have to add more gypsum/lactic acid to bring down than try to bring it back up).

Let me know how you'd like me to contact you and I'll get you my info sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, if there is something specific you'd like me to try, just let me know.

[ScrewyBrewer]

The only other thing I can think of questions for are the hops. Lots of new one's aren't shown but it doesn't appear they affect the ph values no matter what I choose so I plan to just skip that part for now.
I think I'll try the numbers on the new calculator, though much higher, then adjust afterwards and let you know what happens. I'd rather be a bit too high and add more additions than be too low and have to deal with baking soda and the like.

That's right Paul, changing the hop additions wouldn't change the pH value, only changes to water and grains will do that. The hop additions are used to calculate BU:GU and IBU values using the Tinseth formula.

I left the hop page editable, so users can overwrite the existing hop names or alpha acid values with hop types used in their own recipes. With hops it makes sense to match the alpha acid value on the bag, with the alpha acid value on the hops page. Keeping those values in sync will produce a more accurate prediction on the IBU value for the recipe.

I'll be the first to admit I haven't used many of the newer hops yet, if you could send me a list of hops I will add them to the next release. In the meantime say your recipe calls for Lemondrop hops, chances are you won't be needing Bullion hops too, just replace Bullion with Lemondrop, update the AA% to match and you're good to go. Now you will be able to add Lemondrop hop additions to your recipe.

The fields with the white backgrounds are editable, the fields with the light green backgrounds are display only for calculated values.

changehops.jpg (32.9 KiB) Viewed 5161 times

[ScrewyBrewer]

Vince, do you prefer I discuss the testing in this forum or contact you directly?
Here's what I've tried so far:
I've put in my recipe for tomorrows brew in ezRecipe-RO, Brun' Water 4.2 (latest I think) and EZwater 3.0.Using the exact same additions of Gypsum, CCl and lactic acid for 9 gallons of water and my recipe shows a wider range between the 3 than I would like to see. Here's what each shows:
ezRecipe-RO 5.5
EZwater 3 5.48
Brun Water 4.2 5.39
Thru the course of the last year, I've usually been closer to EZwater 3 though recently your last RO calculator was pretty close. But the swing from 5.5 to 5.39 is pretty wide, right? I'm planning to start with the additions I have calculated and see what I end up with and make any adjustments if needed to get me below 5.4 (I'm really wanting to get to about 5.35 but would rather have to add more gypsum/lactic acid to bring down than try to bring it back up).
Let me know how you'd like me to contact you and I'll get you my info sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, if there is something specific you'd like me to try, just let me know.

I'm ok with discussing the testing here in the forum if you are. I am actually encouraged by the pH results you posted, they are all very close. The predicted pH difference between ezRecipe-RO and EZwater is just 0.02, and the predicted pH difference between ezRecipe-RO and Brun Water is just 0.11.

I found it to be incredibly difficult getting the valid DI pH values to enter into ezBrewingWater-RO and EZwater. The accuracy of programs driven by DI pH values for each grain can be very good, as long as the accuracy of the DI pH values entered is also very good.

If you wouldn't mind sharing your recipe and water adjustments I'd like to run the comparisons myself to see where the differences are. I was thinking about including my American Porter recipe in the next release to serve as an example.

PM me tomorrow and I'll send you my contact information. I think you are ready to test the IBU, SRM, OG, FG and ABV% functions of the program now. And once again thank you for the help you have provided.

[mashani]

With hops it makes sense to match the alpha acid value on the bag, with the alpha acid value on the hops page. Keeping those values in sync will produce a more accurate prediction on the IBU value for the recipe.

Hey, I don't know how complicated you want to get there, but HopUnion and other hop producers provide information about AA levels vs. age vs. storage conditions (temperature). How much AAs degrade over time varies quite much depending on variety and temperature. If you want to be really ambitious and do something nobody has bothered doing, you could link up that information to your hops and ask people about how old they are and what temperature they stored them at...

What's on the bag is actually pretty much "a lie" unless they have been in the freezer since the moment they were packaged until you use them.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Hey, I don't know how complicated you want to get there, but HopUnion and other hop producers provide information about AA levels vs. age vs. storage conditions (temperature). How much AAs degrade over time varies quite much depending on variety and temperature. If you want to be really ambitious and do something nobody has bothered doing, you could link up that information to your hops and ask people about how old they are and what temperature they stored them at...

What's on the bag is actually pretty much "a lie" unless they have been in the freezer since the moment they were packaged until you use them.

First off thank you for taking the time to bring this to my attention, I can always use another set of eyes helping to test this application. Please continue providing me with your feedback.

You bring up a great point, and one that I have already begun working on this morning. A MoreBeer article covered the concept you brought up thoroughly. Once implemented please let me know what you think.

Vince

[Beer-lord]

First update: PH test after 15 minutes came in at 5.24, much lower than expected and wanted so a tiny bit of baking soda brought it back to 5.32. That's ok for me.
But all my calculations weren't close. I used an old meter and a new one and bother were very, very close so I'm not sure why there's such a discrepancy. My only other thought is my scale so I'll try a different one next time but I'm doubtful.
I do notice that in Brun Water you can set your actual RO ph, which I did and maybe that's why that one is much closer than the others.

[ScrewyBrewer]

The mash grain section is used to add the type and quantities of grains added to the mash. There is a separate section for adding kettle adjuncts, like sugar, to the boil.

grains.jpg (79.79 KiB) Viewed 5119 times

[ScrewyBrewer]

First update: PH test after 15 minutes came in at 5.24, much lower than expected and wanted so a tiny bit of baking soda brought it back to 5.32. That's ok for me.
But all my calculations weren't close. I used an old meter and a new one and bother were very, very close so I'm not sure why there's such a discrepancy. My only other thought is my scale so I'll try a different one next time but I'm doubtful.
I do notice that in Brun Water you can set your actual RO ph, which I did and maybe that's why that one is much closer than the others.

In RO water like yours, where the total dissolved solids (TDS) are negligible, the output water has very little alkalinity or buffering, practically none.

As the untreated RO water sits exposed to the atmosphere it absorbs Co2, which in turn produces carbonic acid. Since there is extremely little acid buffering in RO water, the carbonic acid is able to reduce the pH value quite easily.

[Beer-lord]

First update: PH test after 15 minutes came in at 5.24, much lower than expected and wanted so a tiny bit of baking soda brought it back to 5.32. That's ok for me.
But all my calculations weren't close. I used an old meter and a new one and bother were very, very close so I'm not sure why there's such a discrepancy. My only other thought is my scale so I'll try a different one next time but I'm doubtful.
I do notice that in Brun Water you can set your actual RO ph, which I did and maybe that's why that one is much closer than the others.

In RO water like yours, where the total dissolved solids (TDS) are negligible, the output water has very little alkalinity or buffering, practically none.

As the untreated RO water sits exposed to the atmosphere it absorbs Co2, which in turn produces carbonic acid. Since there is extremely little acid buffering in RO water, the carbonic acid is able to reduce the pH value quite easily.

So by me getting my water ready 18-24 hours before brew day, I'm causing carbonic acid? Am I reading that correct?
If so, I've done this since I got the RO filter and only the last few brews have I had a problem with and, if that's the case, I need to think how early I get my water ready. And, more important, what can I add to the water so this would not happen? They suggest replacing the lost minerals but that's not what I want to hear.
Almost sounds like I should think about going 50/50 with tap water and RO water.
This has been an awesome learning experience. For me, it's been a fun trip but I think I'll just take a PH reading of my water next time, right before I start the mash and then find out exactly what the PH is and try to adjust. I know Brun' Water has an option to list the ph of the water and up until yesterday, I never even knew that.
Again Vince, thanks for your input.